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Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

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Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#31
post #21
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, the multitouch magic mouse is pretty intuitive when you get used to it. Depending on what you do, it could be an excellent daily driver, but it does tend to have some limitations that can make it a non-starter...

I can’t right click on them. I guess you have to raise up your fingers from the left side? I just found that to be a dealbreaker. I’ve had to use them for work and I turn them into one-button mice with scrolling. The scrolling is excellent, I like low-profile mice, and I don’t mind the charger port location. But I need to right click!

Yes, you have to consciously lift the finger(s) from the left side and only touch the right side when right clicking. Not hard to get used to, but there's definitely some friction if you're coming from a normal mouse.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using the term 'down arrow' in the context of scrolling already reveals you aren't the target audience for such a feature.

Ok, I'm not in the target audience. Fine. I would still like to know what it is.

Scrolling that exactly matches your fingers and has “realistic” momentum.

On a Mac I might scroll through an article by just sort of pushing it the right direction, removing my hand from the trackpad and then tapping to stop it at the right place. It’s very hard to describe these things because so much is muscle memory.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#33

Why does this seem like such a hard problem to solve for everyone that isn’t Apple, when Apple seemingly solved the Trackpad over a decade ago? Is this it? An unknown ROI? >the highly uncertain ROI for trying to align touchpad acceleration has prevented us from proposing a system change to the default Linux settings. I can only speak for myself, but I gave up using trackpads on anything that isn’t a MacBook many year…

I also priorise input devices and because of that I would never get a laptop without a track point. Track pads (no matter which ones) are just such a poor choice of pointing device on a laptop, requiring one to essentially move the hand away from the keyboard. Unfortunately I'm pretty much locked into thinkpads now because all other track pointers are pretty crap. The again I can't really complain thinkpads are quite excellent compared to most other laptops.

Just goes to show that people can prioritise but come to very different conclusions

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#34

Why does this seem like such a hard problem to solve for everyone that isn’t Apple, when Apple seemingly solved the Trackpad over a decade ago? Is this it? An unknown ROI? >the highly uncertain ROI for trying to align touchpad acceleration has prevented us from proposing a system change to the default Linux settings. I can only speak for myself, but I gave up using trackpads on anything that isn’t a MacBook many year…

It’s really annoying. I’ve used a couple of Chromebooks that had excellent trackpads so I know Apple isn’t the only manufacturer that can manage it.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#35

Why does this seem like such a hard problem to solve for everyone that isn’t Apple, when Apple seemingly solved the Trackpad over a decade ago? Is this it? An unknown ROI? >the highly uncertain ROI for trying to align touchpad acceleration has prevented us from proposing a system change to the default Linux settings. I can only speak for myself, but I gave up using trackpads on anything that isn’t a MacBook many year…

It's not a problem for Linux distributions that jettison all the GNU beliefs. ChromeOS has had perfect multitouch input with gestures for years. They ship opaque binaries from Synaptics or whomever and forget about the politics.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#36

What exactly is smooth scrolling? Like you press the down arrow, and the scroll is animated instead of instantly snapping down by 50 pixels?

Like you two-finger scroll on the touchpad and it behaves exactly like a smartphone.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#37

Why does this seem like such a hard problem to solve for everyone that isn’t Apple, when Apple seemingly solved the Trackpad over a decade ago? Is this it? An unknown ROI? >the highly uncertain ROI for trying to align touchpad acceleration has prevented us from proposing a system change to the default Linux settings. I can only speak for myself, but I gave up using trackpads on anything that isn’t a MacBook many year…

It isn't... You can see this in an open source JavaScript implementation of kinetic scrolling by Apple called PastryKit[3] using a magic number momentum * 0.9.

The problem is, that on modern Linux environments, there is no clear responsibility for where scroll handling code belongs. Especially Kinetic / Inertial scrolling is handled way different than in macOS.

There is libinput (for handling and redirecting input events)

There is the display server

There is the compositor

There is the window manager

There is the app layer (every App, like Firefox, Gimp,

Currently kinetic scrolling is implemented on the App layer, every app has to handle the scrolling events manually to provide kinetic scrolling. This is not the case in macOS... the kinetic scrolling / rubber banding is handled within the OS.

In my opinion, the scrolling code could belong into the compositor, so that not every app developer has to write code to handle the scrolling, but still prevent unwanted effects like kinetic scrolling transfer between windows. Additionally, the kinetic scrolling approach is not configurable in Gnome... some touchpads / screens are scrolling way to fast, some are too slow...

I filed an issue[1] on cosmic in hope they'll get it right, but I don't have too high hopes that this is of much interest. On Fedora it works ok-ish with a little hack[2] called libinput-config.

[1]: https://github.com/pop-os/cosmic-epoch/issues/204

[2]: https://gitlab.com/warningnonpotablewater/libinput-config.gi...

[3]: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/38619717/need-help-disse...

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#38

Why does this seem like such a hard problem to solve for everyone that isn’t Apple, when Apple seemingly solved the Trackpad over a decade ago? Is this it? An unknown ROI? >the highly uncertain ROI for trying to align touchpad acceleration has prevented us from proposing a system change to the default Linux settings. I can only speak for myself, but I gave up using trackpads on anything that isn’t a MacBook many year…

It has little to do with 'ROI' and much more with the way hardware gets made.

Touchpad, touch screens and input devices are actually VERY difficult to get all the details right because you're dealing with material properties, differences that show up in manufacturing and even the geometry of the end user (small hands, big hands, wet hands, etc) among other factors.

Apple takes on the responsibility of their internal hardware (SoCs, all embedded boards, materials) AND software (embedded, OS, drivers, etc). They have a culture of caring about details and do a tremendous amount of R&D on these related details, at the design and manufacturing level, before releasing their product.

In contrast, almost all PCs are made by "integrators" (i.e. Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc) who take mostly off-the-shelf or semi-customized components, "integrate them" (I use it in quotes because often, as we know, products will ship with broken ACPI, EFI, broken drivers, etc) and put it out there. The drivers usually come from a hardware vendor who has little incentive to get "details" right, they will be lightly modified and then the OEM will shoehorn that into a semi-customized OS image and the device ships.

Further, traditional vendors like HP or Dell are under pressure to keep churning out "the next" iteration of their HW, so they don't really go back and improve drivers or firmware unless they are forced to.

On the Linux, FreeBSD and open-source side, you have an army of dedicated volunteers who often take highly sub-par or questionable hardware and work (often in the dark, or through reverse engineering) to make things reliable and add polish. The fact that things work "as well as they do" under modern Linux or *BSD is a miracle and mostly the result of individuals who care. There might be a few individuals at an OEM who care, but by and large the culture is not "we should make the most amazing product and provide documentation and support to the open-source community" and more "if they can get it figured out, good for them".

A more practical detail is the fact most touchpad ICs are made by Alps or Synaptics. And these devices include things like 'palm rejection' and other advanced features that haven't been enabled until somewhat recently because the IC vendor might not have shared the details with the people working on the open-source drivers.

You see nearly the same pattern with Android phones, how long before the next phone gets pushed out? Did they really fix the weird bugs that caused the previous phone to overheat, or the celluar link to drop calls unexpectedly? Fix the fact the satellite GPS doesn't work 1 out of 8 times?

Apple isn't perfect by any means, in fact I find the most current versions of macOS to be VERY user hostile but sadly most OEMs superficially copy Apple (i.e. moving to only ONE or TWO USB-C ports on a modern laptop) and miss the key point of making hardware & software actually working well together and openly supporting something other than Windows.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#39
post #19

Why does this seem like such a hard problem to solve for everyone that isn’t Apple, when Apple seemingly solved the Trackpad over a decade ago? Is this it? An unknown ROI? >the highly uncertain ROI for trying to align touchpad acceleration has prevented us from proposing a system change to the default Linux settings. I can only speak for myself, but I gave up using trackpads on anything that isn’t a MacBook many year…

Didn't Microsoft try to do something with the Surface laptops? Did that pan out? But yes, it's mindboggling how bad trackpads are on PCs. I've had corporate Lenovo T-series, X1 Carbon, and Yoga for more than a decade, and while things have gotten slightly better I still need an external mouse I may need to travel a lot by bus to my new job, and I'm now actually considering a Mac again even though Excel/PowerPoint is…

Yeah, Windows has gotten better in recent years with “Precision Touchpad” support. If you use an Apple Magic Trackpad on Windows (not supported but works on normal PCs, not just Boot Camp) Windows recognizes it as a Precision Touchpad.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#40

Why does this seem like such a hard problem to solve for everyone that isn’t Apple, when Apple seemingly solved the Trackpad over a decade ago? Is this it? An unknown ROI? >the highly uncertain ROI for trying to align touchpad acceleration has prevented us from proposing a system change to the default Linux settings. I can only speak for myself, but I gave up using trackpads on anything that isn’t a MacBook many year…

In particular, Linux has been in the middle of a decade-long transition to a new display server that has split efforts for a while. The incumbant Xorg had a few attempts at Windows-style gesture libraries, but those were clunky and not at all like what you'd get on Mac (mostly). By the time quality solutions existed on x11, Wayland desktops were already shipping 1:1 gestures a-la Mac.

So basically, two separate philosophies took two roundabout paths to suit both their needs. It took some doing, but booting up KDE or GNOME in Wayland should "just work" with good trackpad gestures. Both desktops did a good job integrating it, IMO.

> They even sell Bluetooth trackpads for desktops it’s so good.

I use one! When they make one with USB-C charging I'll start recommending it to others again. =)

Pretty much everything besides Force Touch works, too. Multitouch gestures where you rotate or pinch your fingers, Bluetooth connectivity, it's all perfectly usable. The cherry on top is that KDE even has a little mouse-acceleration switch right in the Trackpad settings, no terminal commands required. I'd actually say the trackpad experience on modern Linux is great.

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