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Infinite complexity in 4096 bytes

creativeapplications.net

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Re: Infinite complexity in 4096 bytes

#31
post #23
post #2

Easily forgotten, a lot of today's demos' complexity lies behind API calls to graphics drivers and OS system calls, whose implementations don't count to the byte limit.

Gosh, some guys are so easily hurt by a fact. And what "subtext" you read in my comment. Terrible. As a matter of fact, demo producers are offered more and more API choices. Compare what you had to accomplish with tinkering around with bare-metal BIOS interrupts in the 90s, compared to a full-fledged DirectX API including GPU-raytraycing almost out-of-the-box.

I dunno about hurt blah blah blah but could you explain how exactly the 'modern API choices' provide 'GPU-raytraycing almost out-of-the-box'? if you search for ray tracing in opengl/directx/webgl, you will find no mention of ray-tracing, and for good reason: they don't provide it 'out of the box'.

The ray tracing going on in this demo has nothing to do with the APIs he is using; indeed, that demo could be implemented, pixel perfect, on any platform with floating point arithmetic. it just uses the 'advanced api' to display the resulting image on the screen...

now, the point you make is still a valid one, in that we have more api's than before, but this demo is not an example of using such apis. Better 'grey area 4k' examples that would support your point, are the ones that (for example), loaded the general midi file from windows, and used it as a source of samples (that was a trend a few years ago); or the ones that make use of D3DX's truetype font->extruded mesh routine, to create almost all their geometry out of extruded Arial letters. In both cases, these are such ingenious hacks that despite being in the 'grey area', and definitely (ab)using data available in the host OS, they represent such crazed creativity you can't help but admire them.

either way, such tricks were not used here; you're just seeing the result of a very large number of multiply-add instructions, artfully composed; and that's nothing to do with 'demo producers making more and more API choices'

Re: Infinite complexity in 4096 bytes

#32
Something to keep in mind is that these groups spend months building a world in these 4096 bytes. These aren't weekend hack jobs. Near the end they may be hacking off individual notes from the music, or letters from the credits to fit within their byte budget.

Very little of modern programming can replicate what it was like to work on old systems outside of these kinds of competitions.

For those interested in the music side of these productions, many of the composers use this to write the music. http://4klang.untergrund.net/

Re: Infinite complexity in 4096 bytes

#33

I once spent hours looking for an internet archive or community of demo scene files / artists. There doesn't seem to be one out there in the eyes of google. Can anyone familiar with this art form please provide links to your your underground hangout? :)

www.pouet.net

www.demoscene.tv

www.scene.org

http://www.scenemusic.net/demovibes/

I understand lots of the scene is still active on IRC if you hunt around.

Re: Infinite complexity in 4096 bytes

#34
post #6

I was an intern at a game company last year. I showed the CEO some of the stuff that is going on in the demoscene. He got really worried and told me to not show that to any of his staff. He was afraid that it intimidates his highly paid coders and designers. I found that rather disturbing. How are you going to kill Hollywood if you are afraid of algorithms?

What you can do within severe constraints can be very impressive.

Particular impressive results may not fit into severe constraints.

Do not confuse the two.

Even a small "that's great, but it needs to do..." can change 4KB into 4GB.

Re: Infinite complexity in 4096 bytes

#37

I once spent hours looking for an internet archive or community of demo scene files / artists. There doesn't seem to be one out there in the eyes of google. Can anyone familiar with this art form please provide links to your your underground hangout? :)

pouet.net, #coders on ircnet, or just visit a demoparty in your area.

Re: Infinite complexity in 4096 bytes

#38
post #27
post #5

Cool, but I think my favourite 4k demo is still Elevated, which is much less obviously procedural. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YWMGuh15nE )

Bloody hell, that's brilliant. That's really 4k?!? The intro gave me chills. I wish the geometry were less obviously faceted, but the texturing is astonishing. Of course the OP is brilliant too. Kudos to all these guys!

iq has a presentation on the techinques used

http://iquilezles.org/www/material/function2009/function2009...

Re: Infinite complexity in 4096 bytes

#39
I'm pretty proud of my programming skills. I've worked in everything from assembly to JavaScript, JIT compilers to websites to large-scale, fault-tolerant distributed systems. etc. etc.

But demoscene programming is still the one thing that leaves me totally in awe, feeling like I wouldn't even know where to start to achieve what these guys pull off. Even if I could imagine fitting all those drawing and sound generation routines into 4k, how on earth would you script the whole thing in that little space? How would you encode and execute the sequence of camera paths, music events, and synchronize light flashes with the music? And make it consistent in time, as opposed to depending on the speed of the CPU? I just can't even imagine what the main loop would look like.

Re: Infinite complexity in 4096 bytes

#40
post #2

Easily forgotten, a lot of today's demos' complexity lies behind API calls to graphics drivers and OS system calls, whose implementations don't count to the byte limit.

So what? 100% of the information that makes Demo 1 different from Demo 2 lives inside that 4k. 0% of the creativity that makes demos actually inspiring lives in the OS or graphics drivers.
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