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Colombia's Special Word for "You"

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Re: Colombia's Special Word for "You"

#31
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a person learning Spanish, this reminded me about how regional differences with the language has led to some debate about which variations to cover in courses and textbooks. For example, a university course I took tested for the proper conjugation of verbs with "vosotros/as" (with its typical usage in Spain). But I later read about some debate over why the usage of vosotros/as was tested, but not the usage of vose…

> As a person learning Spanish, this reminded me about how regional differences with the language has led to some debate about which variations to cover in courses and textbooks. As a person who learned Spanish as a foreign language, let me assure you that none of this matters. What matters is learning the language well enough to communicate without causing too much strain on the other person. If you can achieve this…

I generally agree with you as a learner, though I've found advantages and disadvantages to the fairly inflexible learning expectations provided by a university environment.

A useful aspect of the language that I was required to learn was a stricter focus on grammar. I got away for a while with a weaker understanding for verb conjugations during conversation, but the courses required me to learn this thoroughly. Though this wasn't necessary for general communication, this helped with preparation for a professional language assessment and for formal communications.

However, a less useful aspect that didn't matter much to my communication abilities came from taking a course on pronunciation. Though learning the pronunciation rules for the first two thirds was helpful for reducing my foreign accent, the last third required a couple assessments that heavily weighted students' abilities to identify the regional accent of a speaker (e.g. identifying between accents that were Andalusian versus Rioplatense versus Chilean). While there is arguably some value with identifying a speaker's accent from an interview or film, this took a lot of time that I could have spent learning other aspects of the language, and I wish this skill would've been optional to learn.

So, you've hit on one of the downsides of learning Spanish in a formal environment via inflexible expectations of learning goals, though I did find upsides too (that said, a motivated self-learner could absolutely learn grammar on their own—though a classroom environment does provide a nice motivation).

Re: Colombia's Special Word for "You"

#32
post #28
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a person learning Spanish, this reminded me about how regional differences with the language has led to some debate about which variations to cover in courses and textbooks. For example, a university course I took tested for the proper conjugation of verbs with "vosotros/as" (with its typical usage in Spain). But I later read about some debate over why the usage of vosotros/as was tested, but not the usage of vose…

Voseo is only used in Argentina, not sure if also in Uruguay. It's very localized, but still accepted and documented. Rest of speakers understand it no problem, it's very easy to get used to it. This link to the Spanish Real Academia web shows a verb conjugation (scroll down): https://dle.rae.es/hablar?m=form It includes the usted,vos forms.

I know "vos" (which I think voseo means, from this discussion?) is also used in Guatemala, and someone else here mentioned it as used in Paraguay. I read years ago that such things originated based on in which century and from what part of Spain someone migrated.

Re: Colombia's Special Word for "You"

#33
post #32
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voseo is only used in Argentina, not sure if also in Uruguay. It's very localized, but still accepted and documented. Rest of speakers understand it no problem, it's very easy to get used to it. This link to the Spanish Real Academia web shows a verb conjugation (scroll down): https://dle.rae.es/hablar?m=form It includes the usted,vos forms.

I know "vos" (which I think voseo means, from this discussion?) is also used in Guatemala, and someone else here mentioned it as used in Paraguay. I read years ago that such things originated based on in which century and from what part of Spain someone migrated.

Vos is an archaic pronoun that was used to address the nobility. Like usted it was associated with a different verbal form, in this case the plural. You address a noble as if he was more than one person. I guess that's hard to appreciate in English that doesn't make a differece even in the pronoun: you for one you and you for multiple yous.

Argentinian Voseo is using the pronoun but not the majestic plural. Instead they create a brand new form, altering the accent. I had no idea that it was so extended outside Argentina. That surprises me because I know people from many of the relevant countries and had not heard any of them using it, except Argentinians.

Re: Colombia's Special Word for "You"

#34
post #33
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know "vos" (which I think voseo means, from this discussion?) is also used in Guatemala, and someone else here mentioned it as used in Paraguay. I read years ago that such things originated based on in which century and from what part of Spain someone migrated.

Vos is an archaic pronoun that was used to address the nobility. Like usted it was associated with a different verbal form, in this case the plural. You address a noble as if he was more than one person. I guess that's hard to appreciate in English that doesn't make a differece even in the pronoun: you for one you and you for multiple yous . Argentinian Voseo is using the pronoun but not the majestic plural. Instead…

English once did have a 2p distinction - 'you' was formerly the plural form, singular was marked by the now archaic 'thou.' Thou disappeared during the 17th and 18th centuries and "you" + context assumed the duties of both pronouns.

Re: Colombia's Special Word for "You"

#35
post #33
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know "vos" (which I think voseo means, from this discussion?) is also used in Guatemala, and someone else here mentioned it as used in Paraguay. I read years ago that such things originated based on in which century and from what part of Spain someone migrated.

Vos is an archaic pronoun that was used to address the nobility. Like usted it was associated with a different verbal form, in this case the plural. You address a noble as if he was more than one person. I guess that's hard to appreciate in English that doesn't make a differece even in the pronoun: you for one you and you for multiple yous . Argentinian Voseo is using the pronoun but not the majestic plural. Instead…

Interesting; thanks. Actually I don't know how heavily "vos" is used in Guatemala. I know it is used extensively (I heard it occasionally: "mir'a vos", like "look, dude"), but I got the vague impression it might be mostly youths being chummy with each other, and/or could be considered less-educated, but I'm really not sure at all. Other missionaries and I always used Usted regardless of who we were talking with. I did hear that "tu" was only for boys trying to sound romantic to their girlfriend, imitating television.

Re: Colombia's Special Word for "You"

#36
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is wrong — an entire spectrum of early modern variants starting from _vuestra merced_ to _vuesasted_ to _vusted_ to _usted_ has been demonstrated in written and printed matter across the centuries. It helps that written Spanish has been particularly well documented from the Age of Discovery onwards.

> has been demonstrated in written and printed matter across the centuries. which centuries are we talking about? > It helps that written Spanish has been particularly well documented from the Age of Discovery onwards. and that was how many centuries after the Arab occupation? There are tons of Arabic-origin words in Spanish, (alcoba, aljibe, almohada, cerveza, naranja, zanahoria), so the hypothesis of "usted" sharin…

Paper on this subject:

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.academia.edu/491578...

Evidence for "vuestra merced":

http://elies.rediris.es/elies22/cap7.htm

Much more in-depth treatment of "vuestra merced" etymology:

www.academia.edu/39806097/_Fue_vulgar_y_plebeyo_el_origen_de_usted_La_diacron%25C3%25ADa_del_pronombre_de_respeto_desde_la_interfaz_oral_escrito&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjc_-qd9tuEAxXFOjQIHWgZDMsQFnoECAYQAg&usg=AOvVaw1A_5QRn5k5EbDqDOzJ-DUy

Spanish Corpus:

https://www.corpusdelespanol.org/hist-gen/

Interesting review of dialects of Judeo-Spanish from 1894 where "su merced", "su osted", and "usted" all appear:

https://www.cervantesvirtual.com/obra-visor/la-lengua-y-la-l...

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