Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back • Hacker News Board

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#31

Post by nhaehnle » Tue, May 08, 2012, 4:22 PM UTC

dkrich wrote: post #9

I think there is an ongoing obsession in this country to always live in fear and convince oneself that things are always at their worst and the bottom is always about to fall out at any moment. Maybe it's human nature. But I just don't buy this doom and gloom nonsense. Yes the economy is bad, there is no question about that, but the economy has been bad before. Probably the last comparable period was the late 70's. I…

One place where I wholly disagree with Chomsky is the unimportance of the deficit. That is a major, major problem. It is true that creating jobs would help shrink the deficit, but I think there is a lot of rampant spending by the U.S. government that does absolutely nothing to grow or maintain the economy or jobs and should be abolished.

Take a step back and note that you don't actually point out or argue how the deficit is supposedly a problem.

So there are spending programs by the government that you disagree with. Fair enough, I'm sure everybody has some government program that they disagree with. [1] That's what politics is about: disagreement about what the extent of government should be, and in which areas it should be active.

What that doesn't give you is an argument that the deficit is bad. If you genuinely think certain government programs are undesirable and should be cut, then it makes sense to simultaneously cut taxes somewhere so that the deficit remains the same. Otherwise you would effectively be squeezing the private sector by reducing the government deficit.

[1] Though it seems weird that you would only support government spending that grows or maintains the economy or jobs. What about national parks as an example of a pretty obvious good that has no economic benefit?

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#32

Post by bdunbar » Tue, May 08, 2012, 4:42 PM UTC

acslater00 wrote: post #16

I don't know why I keep bothering to point this out, but the notion that "America no longer makes things" is absolutely, empirically, unassailably false. See this: http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/OUTMS And a prior discussion of the topic. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3803022 Anybody who starts a discussion decrying the death of manufacturing in America is selling you something, and it's not a manuf…

Per wiki Chomsky is a 'linguist, philosopher, cognitive scientist, historian, and activist.'

I'm not sure how any of these qualify the man as someone to be listened on the topics of economics or manufacturing.

asset rather than selling it because it fears an uprising of the working class is just about the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard.

It does tell us that Chomsky has an especially stupid view of the world.

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#33

Post by jbooth » Tue, May 08, 2012, 5:12 PM UTC

dlokshin wrote: post #28

jstalin wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Food stamp usage breaking historical pattern of going down when joblesness decreases (and at an all time high): http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-26/food-stamps-keep-go... Two Charts Exposing America's Record Shadow Welfare State - Disability going up dramatically: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/two-charts-exposing-americas-r... Oh, and I never said I support gigantic amounts of defense spending. I'm talking about…

On top of that, the US Gov now accounts for ~25% of wages in this country: http://cl.ly/2a0p1T3a1B0y1B08050g

And that figure's been on a downward trend for the last several years. Take out military and it's been on a downward trend for a decade.

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#34

Post by batista » Tue, May 08, 2012, 5:21 PM UTC

acslater00 wrote: post #16

I don't know why I keep bothering to point this out, but the notion that "America no longer makes things" is absolutely, empirically, unassailably false. See this: http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/OUTMS And a prior discussion of the topic. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3803022 Anybody who starts a discussion decrying the death of manufacturing in America is selling you something, and it's not a manuf…

>I don't know why I keep bothering to point this out, but the notion that "America no longer makes things" is absolutely, empirically, unassailably false.

Too many things wrong with your argument.

For one, employment in that sector (as well as overall) is still down, because fewer people are needed to produce the same things.

Second, that the US produces, say, "more than it did 1985" is meaningless. A better metric would be what share of the domestic and international sold goods it produces, over time.

Third, an ever better measure would be the trade (import/export) deficit over time.

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#35

Post by batista » Tue, May 08, 2012, 5:23 PM UTC

acslater00 wrote: post #16

I don't know why I keep bothering to point this out, but the notion that "America no longer makes things" is absolutely, empirically, unassailably false. See this: http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/OUTMS And a prior discussion of the topic. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3803022 Anybody who starts a discussion decrying the death of manufacturing in America is selling you something, and it's not a manuf…

>Aside from the fact that this story is clearly made-up, the idea that a profit-seeking corporation would favor "shutting down" an asset rather than selling it because it fears an uprising of the working class is just about the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard.

"Made up"? Those kinds of stories play out all the time. Study a little international labour history.

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#36

Post by crusso » Tue, May 08, 2012, 5:24 PM UTC

jbooth wrote: post #6

jstalin wrote: post #2

"It’s quite different now. For many people in the United States, there’s a pervasive sense of hopelessness, sometimes despair." It's because we've been pacified through handouts and the welfare state. There's no longer a need to think about working hard and getting out of the unemployment morass we're in. Government will take care of you! Food stamp spending is at all-time record levels. Millions more people have gon…

jstalin? Really?

Says jbooth? Irony much? :)

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#37

Post by jbooth » Tue, May 08, 2012, 5:28 PM UTC

crusso wrote: post #36

jbooth wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

jstalin? Really?

Says jbooth? Irony much? :)

jbooth is my name. jstalin's a guy who killed about as many people as Hitler.

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#38

Post by batista » Tue, May 08, 2012, 5:32 PM UTC

bdunbar wrote: post #32

acslater00 wrote: post #16

I don't know why I keep bothering to point this out, but the notion that "America no longer makes things" is absolutely, empirically, unassailably false. See this: http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/OUTMS And a prior discussion of the topic. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3803022 Anybody who starts a discussion decrying the death of manufacturing in America is selling you something, and it's not a manuf…

Per wiki Chomsky is a 'linguist, philosopher, cognitive scientist, historian, and activist.' I'm not sure how any of these qualify the man as someone to be listened on the topics of economics or manufacturing. asset rather than selling it because it fears an uprising of the working class is just about the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard. It does tell us that Chomsky has an especially stupid view of the world.

>I'm not sure how any of these qualify the man as someone to be listened on the topics of economics or manufacturing.

Maybe because neither economics, nor manufacturing nor any other field, are fields to be left to the "experts", to the exclusion of the citizenry in general (economics especially, as a soft science that leaches on Math and thrives on state power, is full of idiotic experts, with Phds and Nobels to match, whose aggregate predictive performance is closer to a coin toss, if not negative).

Not to mention that arguments are to be judged in themselves, not based on the expertise of who's making them.

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#39

Post by [deleted] » Tue, May 08, 2012, 5:35 PM UTC

jstalin wrote: post #2

"It’s quite different now. For many people in the United States, there’s a pervasive sense of hopelessness, sometimes despair." It's because we've been pacified through handouts and the welfare state. There's no longer a need to think about working hard and getting out of the unemployment morass we're in. Government will take care of you! Food stamp spending is at all-time record levels. Millions more people have gon…

[deleted]

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#40

Post by leephillips » Tue, May 08, 2012, 5:36 PM UTC

acslater00 wrote: post #16

I don't know why I keep bothering to point this out, but the notion that "America no longer makes things" is absolutely, empirically, unassailably false. See this: http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/OUTMS And a prior discussion of the topic. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3803022 Anybody who starts a discussion decrying the death of manufacturing in America is selling you something, and it's not a manuf…

It is Chomsky, after all: long ago exposed as a scoundrel and purveyor of dishonest pseudo-scholarship (in the realms of politics, history, and economics, not linguistics, where his ideas were considered important for a considerable time).

On another note, I don't remember Salon being this cheesy the last time I visited the site. The sidebar with links to other fascinating Salon articles includes pieces on gay porn, "Girls" sex, naked models, big butts, and more porn. That's five out of seven about porn and body parts. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it seems pretty desperate.