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Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

bbc.com

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Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#31

Post by khokhol »

tptacek wrote: post #30
khokhol wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what you're trying to argue here. That you are attempting to wiggle away from the plainly obvious nature of the quote, for some reason. Nobody denies that an enormous number of civilians have been killed in the IDF's Gaza operation. Except of course numerous Israeli government officials. (They don't deny that many civilians have been killed -- but they have continually attempted to dial down the proporti…

In what way? You get that the Gaza offensive can be a long series of war crimes and unjustifiable civilian casualties and the quote can not mean what the parent comment said it meant, right? If you think the quote is an unimportant side detail, I think we can agree on that generally. This is a thread about rhetoric, not a judgement of the whole conflict.

In what way?

In that it's plainly clear that the Amalek quote does mean what the parent commenter (and anyone else who understands the region) can easily see that it does. But you keep coming up with weird evasive arguments to claim that it doesn't. Like the above, for example.

If you think the quote is an unimportant side detail

Unfortunately and very tragically -- it is anything but.

Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#32

Post by tptacek »

khokhol wrote: post #31
tptacek wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way? You get that the Gaza offensive can be a long series of war crimes and unjustifiable civilian casualties and the quote can not mean what the parent comment said it meant, right? If you think the quote is an unimportant side detail, I think we can agree on that generally. This is a thread about rhetoric, not a judgement of the whole conflict.

In what way? In that it's plainly clear that the Amalek quote does mean what the parent commenter (and anyone else who understands the region) can easily see that it does. But you keep coming up with weird evasive arguments to claim that it doesn't. Like the above, for example. If you think the quote is an unimportant side detail Unfortunately and very tragically -- it is anything but.

You're not engaging with what I've said. You're looking at what's happening in Gaza and deriving axiomatically a new meaning for the quote. That's understandable, but it's not valid.

Or, at least, that's what I think. We're running towards the right margin of the site with this thread now, and we're not going to convince each other of anything, so we can also let it go.

Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#33

Post by runarberg »

tptacek wrote: post #29
khokhol wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was referring specifically to Hamas. That's the spin that the PM's office came up in an attempt to cover its tracks after the massive stink cloud that was raised once the quote became known outside Israel. But for naught. Because it's manifestly clear from the language of the quote (and its historical context) that it refers to the entire population, not just Hamas. And unfortunately backed now by the IDF's action…

No, it's not. There's a long analysis of this in The Atlantic, with the verbatim quote.

This seems irrelevant at this point. Failure to prevent genocide is also a crime (of which Milošević was convicted). He did use that phrase, it has been repeated by actual perpetrators of (potential) genocide, and he has not withdrawn, clarified nor condemned since.

Netanyahu’s speech leading up to the genocide is even more clear then Trumps speech leading up to the Jan. 6th insurrection. Trump at the very least called off the insurrectionists (albeit late and unconvincingly). Netanyahu on the other hand has doubled down.

Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#34

Post by khokhol »

tptacek wrote: post #29
khokhol wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was referring specifically to Hamas. That's the spin that the PM's office came up in an attempt to cover its tracks after the massive stink cloud that was raised once the quote became known outside Israel. But for naught. Because it's manifestly clear from the language of the quote (and its historical context) that it refers to the entire population, not just Hamas. And unfortunately backed now by the IDF's action…

No, it's not. There's a long analysis of this in The Atlantic, with the verbatim quote.

The analysis is flawed, in that it intentionally omits the fact that among the extremists (who have come to dominate the decision-making process about what happens on the ground in Gaza), the "broader" references to Amalek have been commonly applied all Palestinians (not just Hamas or its "evil").

That's why the quote is basically a dog whistle -- intended to be heard loud and clear by one's core constituency, while seeming more innocuous to others.

BTW you'll note that Rosenberg goes on to call accusations of the current genocide "cavalier", which says a lot about where he's coming from.

Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#35

Post by tptacek »

runarberg wrote: post #33
tptacek wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not. There's a long analysis of this in The Atlantic, with the verbatim quote.

This seems irrelevant at this point. Failure to prevent genocide is also a crime (of which Milošević was convicted). He did use that phrase, it has been repeated by actual perpetrators of (potential) genocide, and he has not withdrawn, clarified nor condemned since. Netanyahu’s speech leading up to the genocide is even more clear then Trumps speech leading up to the Jan. 6th insurrection. Trump at the very least call…

See, you're implicitly asking me here to defend Netanyahu. I believe Netanyahu to be among the very worst leaders of the last 75 years, a world-historically bad prime minister who has done more than almost anybody to heighten the intractability and human tragedy of the Israel/Palestine conflict. If you think the "Amalek" speech is irrelevant to that analysis, I agree.

What I object to is the deployment of religious tropes that essentialize Netanyahu-ism or Kahanism into Israel, or, worse still, Judaism as a whole. If you're going to get into this "Amalek" stuff, get it right.

If not, it's not like you needed it to take shots at Netanyahu. There is a decent chance that when he is ultimately ousted, he's going to be imprisoned by the Israelis.

Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#36

Post by khokhol »

tptacek wrote: post #32
khokhol wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way? In that it's plainly clear that the Amalek quote does mean what the parent commenter (and anyone else who understands the region) can easily see that it does. But you keep coming up with weird evasive arguments to claim that it doesn't. Like the above, for example. If you think the quote is an unimportant side detail Unfortunately and very tragically -- it is anything but.

You're not engaging with what I've said. You're looking at what's happening in Gaza and deriving axiomatically a new meaning for the quote. That's understandable, but it's not valid. Or, at least, that's what I think. We're running towards the right margin of the site with this thread now, and we're not going to convince each other of anything, so we can also let it go.

To engage with what you said: I don't think you grasp the extent to which "extremist" thinking on the question of what to do with the Palestinians (backed by violent action) has now become quite normalized in Israel.

For example, it is odd that you attempted to claim, way up top, that it's just the "Kahanist extremists" who take the broader view of the Amalek reference, as this signifies some distance with what Netanyahu thinks. When what defines the current Netanyahu era is its willful alliance with Kahanist parties -- crowned by the appointment of two of its premier representatives to Minister positions.

Along with all the obscene horror of what's been happening on the ground.

Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#37

Post by [deleted] »

tptacek wrote: post #23
enterprise_cog wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have killed over 30k Palestinians. The settlers using that rhetoric are killing people in the West Bank. It’s pretty clear it means the Palestinian people.

Kahanist extremists have used the term to refer broadly to Palestinians in the same way Christian extremists have deployed Christian tropes to dehumanize, well, everybody in the world at one time or another. But the "Amalek" quote is famous because Netanyahu said it, and we have the context for the speech in which he did: he was referring specifically to Hamas.

[deleted]

Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#38

Post by khokhol »

tptacek wrote: post #35
runarberg wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems irrelevant at this point. Failure to prevent genocide is also a crime (of which Milošević was convicted). He did use that phrase, it has been repeated by actual perpetrators of (potential) genocide, and he has not withdrawn, clarified nor condemned since. Netanyahu’s speech leading up to the genocide is even more clear then Trumps speech leading up to the Jan. 6th insurrection. Trump at the very least call…

See, you're implicitly asking me here to defend Netanyahu. I believe Netanyahu to be among the very worst leaders of the last 75 years, a world-historically bad prime minister who has done more than almost anybody to heighten the intractability and human tragedy of the Israel/Palestine conflict. If you think the "Amalek" speech is irrelevant to that analysis, I agree. What I object to is the deployment of religious t…

What I object to is the deployment of religious tropes that essentialize Netanyahu-ism or Kahanism into Israel, or, worse still, Judaism as a whole.

Which absolutely no one is doing here.

With the statement above the discussion has been formally pushed into the deep end, so I agree we can wrap up.

Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#39

Post by runarberg »

tptacek wrote: post #35
runarberg wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems irrelevant at this point. Failure to prevent genocide is also a crime (of which Milošević was convicted). He did use that phrase, it has been repeated by actual perpetrators of (potential) genocide, and he has not withdrawn, clarified nor condemned since. Netanyahu’s speech leading up to the genocide is even more clear then Trumps speech leading up to the Jan. 6th insurrection. Trump at the very least call…

See, you're implicitly asking me here to defend Netanyahu. I believe Netanyahu to be among the very worst leaders of the last 75 years, a world-historically bad prime minister who has done more than almost anybody to heighten the intractability and human tragedy of the Israel/Palestine conflict. If you think the "Amalek" speech is irrelevant to that analysis, I agree. What I object to is the deployment of religious t…

I just want to clarify that I didn’t mean the Amalek speech is irrelevant, but rather whether he originally meant Hamas or the Palestinian people in this speech. Whichever he was originally referring to is irrelevant, if he meant Hamas, the term has grown to mean the Palestinian People, and is being used to pump up the genocide.

Likewise Trump also claims his speech didn’t mean to start an insurrection, however, it did to so, and whatever he originally meant became irrelevant as soon as the insurrectionists started, and he didn’t order them to back down.

Re: Israel's economy shrinks more than expected on Gaza war

#40

Post by tptacek »

enterprise_cog wrote: post #18
jstarfish wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not one single person forgot what triggered it. Most people who aren't bots or shills just disagree that this is at all an appropriate response. Killing civilians in retaliation is not war and no amount of rabbinic rhetoric makes it right. Find a diplomatic solution. It's almost like Israel [leadership] wants another generation of people to hate the Jews. But what do I know of persecution; I'm just a gypsy. Everybody…

Zionists benefit from antisemitism. It furthers the idea that Jews are only safe in Israel. It’s part of the reason they call everything antisemitism, it scares the diaspora and justifies the existence of Israel.

They also call a lot of things antisemitic because they are antisemitic. The notion that Israel is an ethnically Euro-American colony is antisemitic (and racist), erasing the MENA origins of a plurality of its citizens. The notion that Jewish Americans are untrustworthy interlocutors because they have duel loyalties is antisemitic. Calls to "decolonize" Israel and to "globalize the Intifadah" are straightforward appeals to ethnic violence on civilians, just as "Palestinians had a right to self-defense against colonizers" is a straightforward excusal of an atrocity. This stuff is all over the place. Just today, the Harvard Faculty SJP chapter posted an old racist SNCC poster depicting a hand with a Star of David puppeteering two Black men.

Nobody can deny that the concept of "antisemitism" is weaponized against critics of Israel. But at the same time, nobody can deny that many critics of Israel, or out ignorance or animus, weaponize antisemitism against Israel.

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