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California's war on plastic bag use seems to have backfired

latimes.com

31–40 of 87 posts

Re: California's war on plastic bag use seems to have backfired

#31

I remember the brown paper bag being an iconic part of American movies, when I was growing up. What happened to that?

I can carry one of those in each arm or maybe three total bags, if I balance it right. With the plastic ones I can get just about the whole trunk-load wrapped around my wrists and up the stairs in one go.

Don't your plastic bags have handles in the US?

Re: California's war on plastic bag use seems to have backfired

#32

Bag bans are one of the most perfect examples of how American environmentalists focus on all the wrong things and miss the forrest for the trees. The plastic bag in the grocery store contains multiple products packaged in 100x more volume of plastic than the plastic bag. It also contains a bunch of single serving aluminum cans. Banning plastic bags moves the needle the least and greatly annoys customers. It would be…

Your argument is a popular contrarian take, but it doesn't seem to hold up to the evidence: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/31/governme... If California has a problem it isn't because bag bans don't work, it's because they've screwed up their implementation. And yes, supermarkets do still use a lot of unnecessary plastic in packaging, but that's another issue that can also be tackled, and I haven't s…

That's a very selective statistic from a government department.

How many "reusable" bags are sold every year? Each one weighs 50-100x more than the old bags and I guarantee they aren't used proportionally more times.

The statistic given doesn't even cover most businesses. It only covers the major supermarkets - who only offer single use bags in online deliveries and make everybody else buy a much more expensive reusable bag. Pretty much every small business still offers a 10p bag.

Re: California's war on plastic bag use seems to have backfired

#33
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument is a popular contrarian take, but it doesn't seem to hold up to the evidence: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/31/governme... If California has a problem it isn't because bag bans don't work, it's because they've screwed up their implementation. And yes, supermarkets do still use a lot of unnecessary plastic in packaging, but that's another issue that can also be tackled, and I haven't s…

The OP was talking about "bag bans". Your linked article talks about a "bag charge". Those are totally different things. Bag bans force forgetful people to buy "reusable" bags that take more plastic to produce, and inevitably pile up an need to be disposed of. Bag charges don't have that issue, because you can continue to buy thin bags, just at a steep markup.

Most shops in Ire/UK have stopped providing thin plastic bags for sale. All bags are either bags for life or (much) more expensive reusable plastic bags. Only small convenience stores still have the thin bags available.

Re: California's war on plastic bag use seems to have backfired

#34

Bag bans are one of the most perfect examples of how American environmentalists focus on all the wrong things and miss the forrest for the trees. The plastic bag in the grocery store contains multiple products packaged in 100x more volume of plastic than the plastic bag. It also contains a bunch of single serving aluminum cans. Banning plastic bags moves the needle the least and greatly annoys customers. It would be…

Are single serving aluminum cans, if recycled, really worse than the alternatives? Plastic bottles or glass both have their own emissions and recycling issues.

Aluminium cans are probably one of the most effective packing tools we have. They are light, they are volumetrically efficient compared to let's say bottles. They can be recycled effectively. Also they keep stuff good longer than plastic.

Glass on other hand is heavy, and washing it to food standard requires surprisingly hot water and caustic chemicals. Plus all the care in the handling and extra tooling in handling the bottles.

Re: California's war on plastic bag use seems to have backfired

#35
Where I live in Baltimore, Maryland, we have a much more recent single-use plastic bag ban which is very similar -- and I think has the same loophole, with even the same 10 cent charge. I remember reading about it when the law was being rolled out, a few years ago.

But I haven't actually seen any establishment at all offer those heavier allowed-for-a-surcharge bag, it doesn't seem to have become the same problem.

I wonder what the difference is.

Disposalbe paper bags for 5 cents a bag are also allowed, and definitely highly used.

Re: California's war on plastic bag use seems to have backfired

#36

I remember the brown paper bag being an iconic part of American movies, when I was growing up. What happened to that?

They take much more energy/water/land to make, making them much more expensive. Traditionally they didn't have handles and weren't as strong as plastic either. Plastic bags are much better for the store and consumer, ignoring any externalities.

Re: California's war on plastic bag use seems to have backfired

#37
I visited Alaska a few years ago and they had a similar policy. You could get paper bags, but you had to pay for them. No plastic bags. And I did notice that there weren't plastic bags all over the place, so it seemed to be a great idea to me. Granted, I don't have a before/after to make a real comparison.

Re: California's war on plastic bag use seems to have backfired

#38

I remember the brown paper bag being an iconic part of American movies, when I was growing up. What happened to that?

I can carry one of those in each arm or maybe three total bags, if I balance it right. With the plastic ones I can get just about the whole trunk-load wrapped around my wrists and up the stairs in one go.

Seriously, when I was a young man in college I would ride back from the grocery store on my bike with about 50 pounds of groceries in double bagged plastic balanced on my handlebars. Life with only paper bags would have been very sad.

Re: California's war on plastic bag use seems to have backfired

#39

Bag bans are one of the most perfect examples of how American environmentalists focus on all the wrong things and miss the forrest for the trees. The plastic bag in the grocery store contains multiple products packaged in 100x more volume of plastic than the plastic bag. It also contains a bunch of single serving aluminum cans. Banning plastic bags moves the needle the least and greatly annoys customers. It would be…

Your argument is a popular contrarian take, but it doesn't seem to hold up to the evidence: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/31/governme... If California has a problem it isn't because bag bans don't work, it's because they've screwed up their implementation. And yes, supermarkets do still use a lot of unnecessary plastic in packaging, but that's another issue that can also be tackled, and I haven't s…

> Arguing that plastic bags shouldn't be tackled because something else could be done is an argument to do nothing.

How does that follow?

Re: California's war on plastic bag use seems to have backfired

#40
post #17

Bag bans are one of the most perfect examples of how American environmentalists focus on all the wrong things and miss the forrest for the trees. The plastic bag in the grocery store contains multiple products packaged in 100x more volume of plastic than the plastic bag. It also contains a bunch of single serving aluminum cans. Banning plastic bags moves the needle the least and greatly annoys customers. It would be…

Aluminum cans contain about 73% recycled aluminum, in case anyone else was curious. I'm not sure why I thought it was 95%+ https://www.recyclingtoday.com/news/aluminum-cans-recycled-t...

> I'm not sure why I thought it was 95%+

You may have been remembering numbers for the aluminum recycling rate in goods like cars.

> On average, about 97% of the aluminum content in an end-of-life vehicle is recycled. https://www.bcg.com/publications/2022/whats-holding-back-alu...

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