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Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds

theguardian.com

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Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds

#31

Post by zmgsabst »

sieste wrote: post #26
zmgsabst wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Game theory tells us the most effective strategy is matching their energy until they shift modalities. Sometimes, adults deny this truth to their own detriment because they’re “smart” or “civilized”.

Interesting, what's the game theory argument for this strategy?

Iterated prisoner’s dilemma.

The optimal strategy is signaling alliance (to receptive partners); after that, it’s reciprocating behavior.

Teenagers (and many adults) aren’t willing to ally, so we’re left with reciprocating. Until they accept being allies is a good idea.

Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds

#32

Post by anonym29 »

BrandoElFollito wrote: post #12

First, they annoy the elders. Then when they grow up to be teenagers, they live in a cave and communicate mostly through grunting. I am at this phase with my children and I make inhumane efforts not to react and let it flow. I hope that when their brain actually fires up when they are 25 or 30, they will be nice kids who realize what their parents when through to raise them. Please comment only to confirm this, I am…

Decreasingly-recent ex-teenager here. I was a pretty terrible teenager but after my brain fired up, I made it clear to them how grateful I was for the immense personal sacrifices they both undertook to raise my siblings and I.

Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds

#33

Post by anonym29 »

ambyra wrote: post #25
BrandoElFollito wrote: post #12

First, they annoy the elders. Then when they grow up to be teenagers, they live in a cave and communicate mostly through grunting. I am at this phase with my children and I make inhumane efforts not to react and let it flow. I hope that when their brain actually fires up when they are 25 or 30, they will be nice kids who realize what their parents when through to raise them. Please comment only to confirm this, I am…

Probably the best thing for the young chimpanzees is to be out of the house most of the time, be put into a bunch of sports/programs. At that age they start to resent their parents, and they learn a lot more when they're outside doing stuff.

Forcing them to be out of the house is a great way to ensure they never have the time to practice their expressed interest in programming that can eventually lead to a lucrative career.

Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds

#34

Post by [deleted] »

anonym29 wrote: post #33
ambyra wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably the best thing for the young chimpanzees is to be out of the house most of the time, be put into a bunch of sports/programs. At that age they start to resent their parents, and they learn a lot more when they're outside doing stuff.

Forcing them to be out of the house is a great way to ensure they never have the time to practice their expressed interest in programming that can eventually lead to a lucrative career.

[deleted]

Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds

#35

Post by riehwvfbk »

Solvency wrote: post #27
jffhn wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>when their brain actually fires up when they are 25 or 30 Their brain fires up at about 14, and soon starts to figure out that life is actually a costume party, so they spend the next decade in their cave pondering about it while making up their costume, naturally grunting at you while you annoy them with your mundane down-to-earth already-costumed person considerations. Then at 25 or 30 their costume is ready and t…

...so what's your costume?

A giant vermin

Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds

#36

Post by CrazyStat »

zmgsabst wrote: post #31
sieste wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, what's the game theory argument for this strategy?

Iterated prisoner’s dilemma. The optimal strategy is signaling alliance (to receptive partners); after that, it’s reciprocating behavior. Teenagers (and many adults) aren’t willing to ally, so we’re left with reciprocating. Until they accept being allies is a good idea.

Game theory does not tell us that tit for tat is generally optimal. It tells us that it is optimal for a specific game with specific rules and payouts.

It is a mistake to try to translate that to using a tit for tat strategy in general, where the rules and payouts are usually quite different.

Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds

#37

Post by _Algernon_ »

CrazyStat wrote: post #36
zmgsabst wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iterated prisoner’s dilemma. The optimal strategy is signaling alliance (to receptive partners); after that, it’s reciprocating behavior. Teenagers (and many adults) aren’t willing to ally, so we’re left with reciprocating. Until they accept being allies is a good idea.

Game theory does not tell us that tit for tat is generally optimal. It tells us that it is optimal for a specific game with specific rules and payouts. It is a mistake to try to translate that to using a tit for tat strategy in general, where the rules and payouts are usually quite different.

It's not even always the optimal strategy playing prisoner's dilemma. If all your opponents are playing "always defect", playing Tit-for-tat will consistently lose (because of the initial good-faith attempt at cooperation).

Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds

#38

Post by jvanderbot »

BrandoElFollito wrote: post #12

First, they annoy the elders. Then when they grow up to be teenagers, they live in a cave and communicate mostly through grunting. I am at this phase with my children and I make inhumane efforts not to react and let it flow. I hope that when their brain actually fires up when they are 25 or 30, they will be nice kids who realize what their parents when through to raise them. Please comment only to confirm this, I am…

Yes - 100% confirm based on my experience as a grunting ape, and watching my nephew and nieces and cousins grow up. I have toddlers now, and am dreading the upcoming cave phase, esp because once they reach adulthood (real adulthood - 25/30), I'll be dying age.

Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds

#39

Post by lp4vn »

BrandoElFollito wrote: post #12

First, they annoy the elders. Then when they grow up to be teenagers, they live in a cave and communicate mostly through grunting. I am at this phase with my children and I make inhumane efforts not to react and let it flow. I hope that when their brain actually fires up when they are 25 or 30, they will be nice kids who realize what their parents when through to raise them. Please comment only to confirm this, I am…

"Children begin by loving their parents; after a time they judge them; rarely, if ever, do they forgive them." -- Oscar Wilde

For me it's exactly the opposite. When I was a teenager I was always afraid and deferential of my parents, now I can't help but see them as narcisistic and abusive.

Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds

#40

Post by knightoffaith »

_Algernon_ wrote: post #37
CrazyStat wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Game theory does not tell us that tit for tat is generally optimal. It tells us that it is optimal for a specific game with specific rules and payouts. It is a mistake to try to translate that to using a tit for tat strategy in general, where the rules and payouts are usually quite different.

It's not even always the optimal strategy playing prisoner's dilemma. If all your opponents are playing "always defect", playing Tit-for-tat will consistently lose (because of the initial good-faith attempt at cooperation).

Right - if I recall, the story is that there were computer-simulated tournaments in which different strategies for playing the iterated prisoner's dilemma were pitted against each other, and tit-for-tat is the strategy that emerged to be the winner. So it's an empirical result showing that it is generally the most successful strategy, not mathematically shown to be optimal against every strategy.
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