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A cautionary tale about software dependencies during major geopolitical events

blog.benjaminvr.net

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Re: A cautionary tale about software dependencies during major geopolitical events

#31

Post by mrguyorama »

_5hxt wrote: post #13
williamdclt wrote: post #6

I've had to reread, I was certain I missed something. But no, this is entirely conspiratorial speculation without any basis _or_ even without any point? If at least they explicitly put forward a theory like "it's russian influence to slow down western digital development" it would have some internal consistency, but no. They suppose it's russian influence (again, without basis) without any theory of _why_ Russia woul…

Major shifts in behavior from the lead developer does not concern you? Overthrowing the dependencies used and opting in for more experimental and not as battletested JS frameworks does not alarm you? Going against a strong personal opinion after stagnation of development and a complete pivot on multiple levels is normal to you? Shall I mention mainframes still run COBOL? Should I introduce the latest version of this…

Your entire operating theory is that a man you don't even know, a software developer, changed how he feels about software design?

>Shall I mention mainframes still run COBOL? Should I introduce the latest version of this library to achieve the same?

What the heck are you even trying to say here?

>Going against a strong personal opinion after stagnation of development and a complete pivot on multiple levels is normal to you

I mean, maybe his country launching itself into war and mining it's population for bodies to throw at Ukranian bullets and most educated or valuable people fleeing made him reevaluate his feelings on lots of things? Do you have any actual concerns about the code, or are you honestly trying to draw some crazy conspiracy between "A library went a direction I don't like" and "This might be an attack against my work"?

Re: A cautionary tale about software dependencies during major geopolitical events

#32

Post by _5hxt »

I see the post got flagged, sad to see but if that's the verdict this'll be the last comment on this post.

The title is not "I caught a Russian developer doing bad things during war!!", the title mentions "a cautionary tale", which from my point of view is a PSA through the means of sharing observations and my interpretation, with some speculation to inform the reader of possible avenues which may affect them, if not through this repository, through another.

To close my writing I'll include the content of a comment in response to a different user, which should define my intent:

"My point would mainly be to spread awareness and share an experience and my interpretation of it, not "slander" and paint a target on my back by namecalling and divulging more information which doesn't serve a purpose beyond wanting clout under the assumption that the war does not affect myself and others around me."

Thanks. Have a good weekend.

Re: A cautionary tale about software dependencies during major geopolitical events

#33

Post by adontz »

gbuk2013 wrote: post #12
adontz wrote: post #2

>> The founder & lead developer is Russian and does not accept donations, perhaps noble, perhaps to avoid a financial trail. In modern Russia, if one receives money transfer from any other country, they may receive "Foreign Agent" (иностранный агент) status https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_agent "prohibited from receiving state funding, teaching at state universities, or working with children"

As per the page you linked to, FA law applies only to this who engage in “political activity”, which most people (regardless of the country) tend not to do.

The way Russian authorities tend to interpret laws may be quite surprising. For example, Russian government insists they conduct Special Military Operation (SMO). It is enough to reference Russo-Ukrainian conflict as War, instead of SMO, even in private conversation, to get a few years in jail.

Re: A cautionary tale about software dependencies during major geopolitical events

#34

Post by kjs3 »

gbuk2013 wrote: post #12
adontz wrote: post #2

>> The founder & lead developer is Russian and does not accept donations, perhaps noble, perhaps to avoid a financial trail. In modern Russia, if one receives money transfer from any other country, they may receive "Foreign Agent" (иностранный агент) status https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_agent "prohibited from receiving state funding, teaching at state universities, or working with children"

As per the page you linked to, FA law applies only to this who engage in “political activity”, which most people (regardless of the country) tend not to do.

Everything is politics. - Thomas Mann

Re: A cautionary tale about software dependencies during major geopolitical events

#35

Post by pavel_lishin »

_5hxt wrote: post #20
lupusreal wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that this is the internet and I don't know you, how can I distinguish a sane person making well founded claims backed by hidden evidence they won't share with me, and a crazy person just being paranoid and seeing conspiracy where there is none? Usually the evidence is what makes the difference, but if you can't/won't share the evidence then what good are the accusations?

That's fair, shall I put the names in the article and a link to the repository? Really, it's a war. Do you think I will risk my own wellbeing just to have clout for a few days? Not to mention opening myself up for the possibility of being sued by one or more contributors for "slander". I chose this approach and won't budge on that - it's not a fairy tale that people are dying and everything is affected by it, the lis…

We're not asking you to expose yourself or anyone else to any danger.

But you must realize that without going into more detail, we honestly have no idea what you're trying to communicate.

I read your post, and I still don't understand what the war, and embargoes on Russia, have to do with an open source project changing how they do things. From reading other comments here, other people are also confused.

Re: A cautionary tale about software dependencies during major geopolitical events

#36

Post by pavel_lishin »

gbuk2013 wrote: post #12
adontz wrote: post #2

>> The founder & lead developer is Russian and does not accept donations, perhaps noble, perhaps to avoid a financial trail. In modern Russia, if one receives money transfer from any other country, they may receive "Foreign Agent" (иностранный агент) status https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_agent "prohibited from receiving state funding, teaching at state universities, or working with children"

As per the page you linked to, FA law applies only to this who engage in “political activity”, which most people (regardless of the country) tend not to do.

If you continue quoting from the wikipedia article, you'll also come across this (emphasis mine):

> if they engage in "political activity", a broadly interpreted term

Re: A cautionary tale about software dependencies during major geopolitical events

#37

Post by gbuk2013 »

adontz wrote: post #33
gbuk2013 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As per the page you linked to, FA law applies only to this who engage in “political activity”, which most people (regardless of the country) tend not to do.

The way Russian authorities tend to interpret laws may be quite surprising. For example, Russian government insists they conduct Special Military Operation (SMO). It is enough to reference Russo-Ukrainian conflict as War, instead of SMO, even in private conversation, to get a few years in jail.

I apologise for being pedantic (I am a programmer with a law degree and so have twice the inclination to be): can you provide specific examples of the FA law being interpreted in “surprising ways” especially in light of the GP concerns about a developer of some NPM package?

Here is a list of individuals designated as FAs (the Russian DOJ site doesn’t load for me so I can’t verify it right now). https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Список_иностранных_агентов_(... I recognise a few people on that list and can see why they are on it based on what I read online. Can you suggest some names that are surprising?

Just to be clear, we are discussing the interpretation of the law, rather than whether or not the law should exist in the first place - that’s an entirely different kettle of fish.

Re: A cautionary tale about software dependencies during major geopolitical events

#38

Post by text0404 »

the developer of a library removed a feature around the time the war started and this is enough to accuse them of what, being a Russian state operative? without evidence, this is borderline xenophobic, man.

people's minds change, APIs change: look at the mess that was Python 2 -> 3, Angular 1 -> 2, react-router 4 -> 5, etc.

Re: A cautionary tale about software dependencies during major geopolitical events

#39

Post by adontz »

gbuk2013 wrote: post #37
adontz wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way Russian authorities tend to interpret laws may be quite surprising. For example, Russian government insists they conduct Special Military Operation (SMO). It is enough to reference Russo-Ukrainian conflict as War, instead of SMO, even in private conversation, to get a few years in jail.

I apologise for being pedantic (I am a programmer with a law degree and so have twice the inclination to be): can you provide specific examples of the FA law being interpreted in “surprising ways” especially in light of the GP concerns about a developer of some NPM package? Here is a list of individuals designated as FAs (the Russian DOJ site doesn’t load for me so I can’t verify it right now). https://ru.m.wikipedia…

#5 Моргенштерн Алишер Тагирович Crazy rap performer.

#8 Чичваркин Евгений Александрович Businessman, moved to London before FA law was implemented.

#59 Новиков Илья Сергеевич Lawyer of Nadezhda Savchenko

I am not surprised they are on the list, this is how Russian Government operates. Interpretation of law is surprising by western standards.

Re: A cautionary tale about software dependencies during major geopolitical events

#40

Post by gbuk2013 »

adontz wrote: post #39
gbuk2013 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I apologise for being pedantic (I am a programmer with a law degree and so have twice the inclination to be): can you provide specific examples of the FA law being interpreted in “surprising ways” especially in light of the GP concerns about a developer of some NPM package? Here is a list of individuals designated as FAs (the Russian DOJ site doesn’t load for me so I can’t verify it right now). https://ru.m.wikipedia…

#5 Моргенштерн Алишер Тагирович Crazy rap performer. #8 Чичваркин Евгений Александрович Businessman, moved to London before FA law was implemented. #59 Новиков Илья Сергеевич Lawyer of Nadezhda Savchenko I am not surprised they are on the list, this is how Russian Government operates. Interpretation of law is surprising by western standards.

#5 is definitely suspicious reasoning - no surprise it is being appealed in the courts. That said, having read a little about this colourful persona, I have to admit my thought was “good job, he deserved it” although I know I really shouldn’t think like that. :) This is really an example of cancel culture, just done by the government. The problem is that there’s not really a law against being an arse and bringing in such a law would do more harm than good, so they are doing “the wrong thing for the right reasons”.

The other 2 cases seem pretty clear-cut and less than 0 sympathy from me personally.

FWIW, based on my experience in living in both systems there are some fundamental differences in culture that may help to get a better perspective: group has priority over individual; responsibilities / duties of the individual rather than rights; the more people you reach with what you say the higher the expectation that you will be a role model and the greater the censure if you don’t (sadly corruption and cronyism often gets in the way); a very strong “us” vs “them” mentality. I see these all the time playing out in different ways.

As for applying “western standards” I actually had a law lecturer (I studied and live in UK) argue that this sort of thing is an example of “cultural imperialism”. I would just caution that a thorough understanding of historic, social, geographical (and other) challenges should be considered before trying to import patterns from elsewhere. Governance is what we would call in IT a “hard problem”.

I’ll stop before this becomes an essay. :)

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