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The quiet death of Ello's big dreams

waxy.org

31–40 of 264 posts

Re: The quiet death of Ello's big dreams

#31

"But a little digging shows a much more predictable source: they took a $435,000 round of seed funding in January from FreshTracks Capital, a Vermont-based VC firm that announced the deal in March." People forget (or mostly never knew) that Ello was a Vermont thing. I once spitballed with a certain VC at FreshTracks Capital about an idea I had, which lead to him running off with it and burning millions of dollars mak…

> People forget (or mostly never knew) that Ello was a Vermont thing. True, but a little misleading. The majority of the co-founders of Ello, plus nearly all of its staff, were based in Colorado. Source: I worked for Ello.

Well now I have to ask - what was it like inside the cauldron? Any learnings you took into your next step?

Re: The quiet death of Ello's big dreams

#32
I know that nobody is purporting to have the answer, and I am definitely not trying to suggest that there's anything wrong with the conclusions drawn here--quite the contrary, actually. But, if VC funding is clearly a bad way to go about things, then what is the best way to structure and fund an organization built around a network or service that is primarily in the game of serving user-generated content and providing social networking and chatting services?

VC funding has a lot of problems. Funding via advertising is similarly fraught with peril, maybe worse, especially the most lucrative stuff. You can fund things by selling premium content or features, but this too is rather tenuous: if you are say, SoundCloud, one of your primary customers is inevitably going to be artists, who themselves are by and large not rich.

Not to mention, no matter who you focus your monetization on, $1 is infinitely more than $0, and monetizing useful features or access to content will inevitably lower the overall value of your platform. This is presumably part of why advertising is so enticing: end users don't have to "pay" anything. Sure, advertising isn't literally free, but users do not have to set up a payment method and take money from their account and send it to yours, which is a massive difference, and massively increases accessibility.

Then there's stuff like crowdfunding. Platforms that let you do one-off funding campaigns like Kickstarter or Gofundme, or platforms that let you do monthly subscriptions in exchange for "rewards" like Patreon or FANBOX. There even is a platform that is partly funded by monthly subscription payments (Misskey.io) and although I'm sure it is a relatively small part of the funding (at least I would certainly assume so) it still seems to have been successful nonetheless.

And that's just funding. What about structure? Becoming a non-profit or public benefit corporation is seemingly not any kind of sure-fire way to avoid trouble, as can be seen here. While I don't know exactly how the legalese works around a lot of these topics, it feels like these measures simply don't do enough to prevent corruption or at the very least, undesired future changes in direction. You want a company to have autonomy to carry out its vision and try to survive in the process, but you don't want it to compromise its core values in the process. Is there anything you can do legally and/or socially to provide better assurances?

This is very frustrating because I think a lot of us see the sad state of the Internet and want to do something, but it's hard to work towards it because you can also see a graveyard of good intentions gone horribly awry. There's all kinds of attempts to work around it, but as a wise man once said, "Mo Money Mo Problems". It seems that the temptation to exploit things always manages to find a way around your safeguards to prevent things from being exploited. Just to beat a dead horse even more, remember the last time you were excited for a Google product announcement, like say, GMail? I'm not saying they were ever a charity or intending to be... but it's hard to not see the painful way in which values that were once hard-fought slowly fade away. Somehow, eventually, everything becomes rent-seeking, a game to see how much money you can get back from an investment. One would hope there is a way out that doesn't involve a very painful upheaval of society, but over time it's getting harder and harder to believe it.

Re: The quiet death of Ello's big dreams

#33

I'm amazed by the number of people who trust websites like this with their memories/diaries etc. I mean, I understand why, there's an expectation when you start with these sites they'll be around forever - most people don't have the time, the knowledge or the desire to "do it themselves" - When livejournal was all the rage I decided to do it myself with Postnuke, then (and still!) Drupal. Going on 24 years now. That…

That is the main takeaway from all these. The lesson is not that venture capital ruined it. But that eventually, at some point, either the founder or circumstances change the thing. The one permanent here is that it's bit on a digital network. By definition not permanent. And so people run into this again and again and still don't believe that XYZ might be next.

But it is, XYZ is their business platform, their social media network, their journals, their photo hoster, their "lifetime membership", etc. I ran into this all the time with clients. They would worry about what happens to their consultant, but never to their infrastructure.

So for businesses: have a plan B, and have usable archives / backups. And for individuals, have a plan B, and have usable archives / backups.

Re: The quiet death of Ello's big dreams

#34

> After leaving Ello in 2016, Budnitz returned to his Kidrobot roots with the launch of Superplastic in 2017, a vinyl figure company that expanded into NFTs and the metaverse in 2022, raising a total of $68M in seven rounds of funding, led by Amazon. Superplastic appears to have abandoned its NFT projects last year as the market cratered, and Budnitz stepped down from his CEO role in September, replaced by the former…

[deleted]

Re: The quiet death of Ello's big dreams

#36
> I felt sad for the guy. It’s awful going through life never believing in anything.

Being an idealist is fine, but being a dick is not. This article took on some personal schadenfreude after I read this line.

Re: The quiet death of Ello's big dreams

#37

I remember when tech twitter (or at least Node.js twitter) tried to migrate to Ello for like a week. A pretty good portion of my social network moved, myself included. But it fizzled out really quickly and we all ended up back on Twitter. Every once in a while I'd still get a notification from Ello that someone had followed me. It was always a porn bot, but the email notification was still nostalgic. A part of me is…

I remember when something-something twitter tried to migrate to Threads for like a week. And to Mastodon before that. Remember when tech Reddit tried to migrate to Lemmy? A hardcore handful of people migrate await from the Death Star and stay migrated (maybe a couple hundred medium accounts, and 1 or 2 bigger ones), but everybody else trickles back onto the Death Star eventually. The only thing that works to get peop…

Twxttxr is getting pretty close now - maybe in some ways surpassing Digg in awfulness.

Specifically the massive level of pornbot traffic, and algorithm changes that seem to be intentionally surfacing posts to adversarial users who will then go on the attack.

Re: The quiet death of Ello's big dreams

#38
post #32

I know that nobody is purporting to have the answer, and I am definitely not trying to suggest that there's anything wrong with the conclusions drawn here--quite the contrary, actually. But, if VC funding is clearly a bad way to go about things, then what is the best way to structure and fund an organization built around a network or service that is primarily in the game of serving user-generated content and providin…

Day to day corruption is a problem. And if we had a solution, it would be known (the concept of bug bounties goes in the right direction, perhaps). I think this is a fundamental problem and research opportunity with the legal forms for institutions and staff incentives.

Even "winding down" doesn't necessarily need to be a problem. It's all in the "how" it's done.

Re: The quiet death of Ello's big dreams

#39

Just a reminder: If you are not paying for the product, you are the product. The internet culture birthed from the early days of the internet "Everything is free", seems to have captured a whole generation who simply have no concept of cost and value. Vid.me is another start-up that comes to mind: Youtube sucks, has too many ads, and sells your data. We won't have ads, won't sell your data, and will host all your con…

That's exactly it. I'm not sure what about software in particular makes people think that it can exist without funding. People have no problem paying for a physical product, but virtual products are hard to justify for some reason.

Re: The quiet death of Ello's big dreams

#40

Just a reminder: If you are not paying for the product, you are the product. The internet culture birthed from the early days of the internet "Everything is free", seems to have captured a whole generation who simply have no concept of cost and value. Vid.me is another start-up that comes to mind: Youtube sucks, has too many ads, and sells your data. We won't have ads, won't sell your data, and will host all your con…

> If you are not paying for the product, you are the product.

That's a fun quip (and often correct) but the world needs a way to run this kind of project. Community? free? transparent? etc, etc.

And I think this issue is not just about "free systems", culture changes and day to day corruption creeps and destroys everything. Even die-hard for-profit institutions (where entire branches might go rogue on their own objectives.)

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