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UK and US strikes against Houthis under way in Yemen, say US officials

theguardian.com

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Re: UK and US strikes against Houthis under way in Yemen, say US officials

#31

Post by johnnyworker »

wslh wrote: post #30
fckhsbra wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a double standard but it's not the one you think. Israel is the only state that can get away with such behavior without a single sanction. Russia is under a severe package of sanctions for doing something that is not fundamentally different. Israel is also a particular focus in the West (and especially in America) because it's done with US support (in the UN) and US weapons. So, yes, people are talking about…

> Israel is also a particular focus in the West (and especially in America) because it's done with US support (in the UN) and US weapons. You are nitpicking historical events. It's critical not to view events in isolation, they are deeply linked to the past, rather than being a series of unrelated incidents. In 1948, following the UN Partition Plan of Palestine approved the creation of two states (this decision was m…

> You are nitpicking historical events.

In response to the straw man that people who criticize Israel never do so based on principles they apply to everything else as well, which warrants no response at all. It's not even worth taking note of at this point, it's just a square on a bingo card that got real old real quick.

Re: UK and US strikes against Houthis under way in Yemen, say US officials

#32

Post by wslh »

johnnyworker wrote: post #31
wslh wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Israel is also a particular focus in the West (and especially in America) because it's done with US support (in the UN) and US weapons. You are nitpicking historical events. It's critical not to view events in isolation, they are deeply linked to the past, rather than being a series of unrelated incidents. In 1948, following the UN Partition Plan of Palestine approved the creation of two states (this decision was m…

> You are nitpicking historical events. In response to the straw man that people who criticize Israel never do so based on principles they apply to everything else as well, which warrants no response at all. It's not even worth taking note of at this point, it's just a square on a bingo card that got real old real quick.

The problem here about fallacies is that these discussions have real world implication and are not a theorem in a chalkboard.

People kill and die based on ideas, power, etc and not following logical rules. That is the main fallacy: applying [only] logic to the human world.

Re: UK and US strikes against Houthis under way in Yemen, say US officials

#33

Post by johnnyworker »

wslh wrote: post #32
johnnyworker wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are nitpicking historical events. In response to the straw man that people who criticize Israel never do so based on principles they apply to everything else as well, which warrants no response at all. It's not even worth taking note of at this point, it's just a square on a bingo card that got real old real quick.

The problem here about fallacies is that these discussions have real world implication and are not a theorem in a chalkboard. People kill and die based on ideas, power, etc and not following logical rules. That is the main fallacy: applying [only] logic to the human world.

I was just saying that there is no such thing as an insufficient counter-argument to something that can't even stand on its own. "People who say X NEVER say Y" is just.. nothing.

And when I "apply logic to the human world" there is not an instance in which I'm not fully "inside" the human world myself. Logic isn't some magical outside thing, and like conversation it doesn't have to be a means to an end.

Re: UK and US strikes against Houthis under way in Yemen, say US officials

#34

Post by wslh »

johnnyworker wrote: post #33
wslh wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here about fallacies is that these discussions have real world implication and are not a theorem in a chalkboard. People kill and die based on ideas, power, etc and not following logical rules. That is the main fallacy: applying [only] logic to the human world.

I was just saying that there is no such thing as an insufficient counter-argument to something that can't even stand on its own. "People who say X NEVER say Y" is just.. nothing. And when I "apply logic to the human world" there is not an instance in which I'm not fully "inside" the human world myself. Logic isn't some magical outside thing, and like conversation it doesn't have to be a means to an end.

Do you agree that war is a continuation of politics? (probabilistically speaking)

Re: UK and US strikes against Houthis under way in Yemen, say US officials

#35

Post by johnnyworker »

wslh wrote: post #34
johnnyworker wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was just saying that there is no such thing as an insufficient counter-argument to something that can't even stand on its own. "People who say X NEVER say Y" is just.. nothing. And when I "apply logic to the human world" there is not an instance in which I'm not fully "inside" the human world myself. Logic isn't some magical outside thing, and like conversation it doesn't have to be a means to an end.

Do you agree that war is a continuation of politics? (probabilistically speaking)

What does "war" have to do with dropping 2000lbs bombs in one of the most densely populated areas of the world, bombing refugee camps, stripping people in the streets, sniping a 70 year old women with a white flag and fleeing with a child, destroying streets just to make Gaza unlivable, singing about how there are no innocent civilians in Gaza, spraying demented graffitis in the homes of Palestinians that are either racist or religious zealotry? Politics? All that stuff is a result of personality disorders and group dynamics between people with personality disorders. The incapability to have empathy and the inability to reflect, the positive NEED to deflect every single time, talk about the other, talk about something else, is the one constant.

Re: UK and US strikes against Houthis under way in Yemen, say US officials

#36

Post by wslh »

johnnyworker wrote: post #35
wslh wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you agree that war is a continuation of politics? (probabilistically speaking)

What does "war" have to do with dropping 2000lbs bombs in one of the most densely populated areas of the world, bombing refugee camps, stripping people in the streets, sniping a 70 year old women with a white flag and fleeing with a child, destroying streets just to make Gaza unlivable, singing about how there are no innocent civilians in Gaza, spraying demented graffitis in the homes of Palestinians that are either…

Are you saying that this is a planned genocide order executed by the IDF? I was just looking at your profile [1]

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=johnnyworker

Re: UK and US strikes against Houthis under way in Yemen, say US officials

#37

Post by runarberg »

tptacek wrote: post #29
runarberg wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don’t offer exemptions on human rights if you have the right motive. Human rights are supposed to be kept regardless of past wrongs. So what happened to Israel prior to their violations of international agreements is irrelevant. The double standard here is that both Russia and Israel are guilty of breaking human rights but instead of ordering sanctions against Israel, many nations offered them more weapons to do…

You're rebutting an argument I didn't make. Not being like Russia doesn't excuse war crimes.

Sorry, I’m not that good at making my argument clear.

What I’m rebutting—or rather making a poor attempt to rebut—is your hinting that the international double standard doesn’t exist, or at the very least is understandable. The interviewee in the al-Jazeera interview makes a much better argument for the existence, the importance of recognizing, and the inexcusableness of this international double standard, better than I ever could.

Re: UK and US strikes against Houthis under way in Yemen, say US officials

#38

Post by tptacek »

runarberg wrote: post #37
tptacek wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're rebutting an argument I didn't make. Not being like Russia doesn't excuse war crimes.

Sorry, I’m not that good at making my argument clear. What I’m rebutting—or rather making a poor attempt to rebut—is your hinting that the international double standard doesn’t exist, or at the very least is understandable. The interviewee in the al-Jazeera interview makes a much better argument for the existence, the importance of recognizing, and the inexcusableness of this international double standard, better tha…

The international double standard does not in fact exist. The two situations are not comparable. That observation does not exonerate Israel.

Re: UK and US strikes against Houthis under way in Yemen, say US officials

#39

Post by runarberg »

tptacek wrote: post #38
runarberg wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I’m not that good at making my argument clear. What I’m rebutting—or rather making a poor attempt to rebut—is your hinting that the international double standard doesn’t exist, or at the very least is understandable. The interviewee in the al-Jazeera interview makes a much better argument for the existence, the importance of recognizing, and the inexcusableness of this international double standard, better tha…

The international double standard does not in fact exist. The two situations are not comparable. That observation does not exonerate Israel.

This particular criticism is not directed at Israel, but at countries supporting Israel, such as the USA and the UK. The point is that human rights violations are enabled and even supported by third countries when Israel is the perpetrator, but not when Russia is the perpetrator.

Re: UK and US strikes against Houthis under way in Yemen, say US officials

#40

Post by tptacek »

runarberg wrote: post #39
tptacek wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The international double standard does not in fact exist. The two situations are not comparable. That observation does not exonerate Israel.

This particular criticism is not directed at Israel, but at countries supporting Israel, such as the USA and the UK. The point is that human rights violations are enabled and even supported by third countries when Israel is the perpetrator, but not when Russia is the perpetrator.

Again: the situations are not comparable. Russia was unprovoked and has a stated objective of annexing a sovereign country. Israel is in fact under military threat (was, in fact, attacked, gravely), from territory it has occupied since 1967. It is unsurprising that the international responses are not equivalent.

A short way to sum this up is: regardless of the distaste many in the west (myself included) have for the means by which Israel is pursuing it's goal, the west is unanimous in support of that actual goal: no western state believes Hamas should be left to govern Gaza, even as many probably do quietly hope to haul Netanyahu to the Hague (if the Israelis don't imprison him first).

Meanwhile: every western state actively, viscerally opposes Russia's goal.

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