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Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

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Re: Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

#31

Post by kaolinite »

mazelife wrote: post #13
tripzilch wrote: post #4

It was posts like this that made me decide to learn Python instead of Ruby, many years back when I was trying to decide what new scripting language to learn. I could not find any particular programming advantage of Python over Ruby or vice versa . But from the blog posts it was obvious which community I liked much better: Python's were to the point and technical, if making comparisons with Ruby they'd say they're bot…

Really? In my experience, Django has about the best documentation of any open source web framework. How are the docs lacking? The site's focus is definitely developer-centric. It would be nice if there was either a broader focus on that site or an alternative entry port for non-developer folks--particularly non-technical decision makers.

I agree, best documentation of any framework I've used.

Re: Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

#32

Post by glesica »

tripzilch wrote: post #28
glesica wrote: post #22

This reminds me of the jQuery docs situation. Every month or so somebody comes up with an alternative way to access them that's flashy and uses frames with low contrast text and lots of shadows and gradients. I play with the site for 60 seconds thinking "this is neat", and then go back to using the official docs because they come up in a Google search. I don't think I've ever actually accessed the Python docs in any…

> I don't think I've ever actually accessed the Python docs in any other way in fact. Same goes for Django. They're clean, static HTML, totally trivial for search engines to index and you always get just what you think you're getting when you click over from a search engine. I usually download them as local static HTML so I can also access them when I'm coding without stray wireless packets floating in the air.

I've actually done this as well, should have mentioned that. Also, the Django docs can be easily compiled into a (very large) ebook in epub format. I put a copy on my Nook. Comes in handy every now and then.

Re: Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

#33

Post by throwawaysnipe »

Linkbait with a main course of generalization and ample sides of selection bias. OP is a Python/Django shop -- if this is intended as a call to arms it is severely misguided.

What does web design have to do with the actual languages? All you've proven is that Ruby developers spend more time on HTML and CSS.

With regard to docs, as of May 2011

  "With revision 31499 of trunk RDoc reports that just 
  under half of ruby has not even a single character of
  comments with over half of the classes and modules
  missing documentation"
Source: http://blog.segment7.net/2011/05/09/ruby-1-9-3-documentation...

Given finite developer resources, I'd rather have docs over shiny. The Python community has its priorities straight.

Re: Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

#34

Post by tripzilch »

> Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

Well, once upon a time Python had a beautiful documentation website with lovely illustrations and cute stories. But then the fairy princess elf who made it threw a hissy-fit, disappeared from the Internet and took all their content offline with them, without telling anyone why.

Ever since then we've been recycling Monty Python jokes, because hopefully John Cleese is above that sort of thing.

Re: Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

#36

Post by krelian »

tripzilch wrote: post #26
mazelife wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? In my experience, Django has about the best documentation of any open source web framework. How are the docs lacking? The site's focus is definitely developer-centric. It would be nice if there was either a broader focus on that site or an alternative entry port for non-developer folks--particularly non-technical decision makers.

> Really? In my experience, Django has about the best documentation of any open source web framework. How are the docs lacking? It's been a few years so I don't recall exactly (and maybe it has improved) but I just found myself browsing and clicking around to re-read particular chapters all the time, that I could only reach via an unintuitive sequence of 2 or 3 clicks. Only when I found that the docstrings inside Dja…

>I just found myself browsing and clicking around to re-read particular chapters all the time, that I could only reach via an unintuitive sequence of 2 or 3 clicks.

It's true that the main documentation link doesn't have everything. If you want everything you need to go to https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.4/contents/

Re: Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

#37

Post by pbreit »

Rails grew up in the design community (led by 37 Signals) so the current situation makes sense. I'm not sure it's that bad but there is probably room for improvement. Some may even appreciate the sparer aesthetics in the Python world.

The one I think wish is that Sphinx had a better design. There's something attractive about its simplicity but I have the hardest time navigating around.

Re: Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

#38

Post by cageface »

davidu wrote: post #9

Misleading title. Link Bait. What does the aesthetics of a web page have to do with the quality of the language? If the usability is in question, that's one thing -- but the author isn't arguing the less "Sexy" (his words) sites are less usable, simply less attractive to him. Who cares? If you pick a language based on the sexiness of various websites that are related to the language, you are probably not in the right…

Good design is a signal. If the people behind a product took the time to make something look good it's likely that they sweated the other details too.

Especially when two products are close to functionally interchangeable, like Ruby and Python, design can be decisive. Engineers chronically underestimate the importance of design and marketing.

Re: Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

#40

Post by alinajaf »

pacemkr wrote: post #21

Here's an anecdote: In my experience, finding something in Python docs takes a total of five seconds, including passing through the "Google gateway". Finding something in Rails reference has been downright impossible. This is a function of Ruby itself, a very magical language, magic that fails to communicate in auto-generated documentation. How does this work? Good luck finding out, but you'll feel very clever three…

As a ruby developer I may not be that well qualified to ask about this but can you give me an example where you've had this difficulty? It would be good to know in case there's some low-hanging fruit in documentation that would make new ruby/rails developers lives easier.

I tend to have a very easy time finding the documentation I need, in both ruby and rails. Sometimes that means a google search, but if I want more fine-grained implementation details, I normally crack open the gem in question with `bundle open` and read the source. I know that a lot people from a Java background for example prefer code-completion in their IDE's to reading source, but it seems to be the most comfortable way to find what you're looking for, in ruby at least.

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