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Two physicists who correctly predicted the mass of Higgs boson [video]

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Re: Two physicists who correctly predicted the mass of Higgs boson [video]

#31

Post by mr_mitm »

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #26
mr_mitm wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The position is: quantum gravity might not be that big of a mysterious problem as most physicist make it out to be so they would rather ignore that prediction by Wetterich. That's it, that's the entire position. I don't know, that's not a lot of substance to work with. I don't think it's a particular controversial stance. It does fit very well into her "I'm not like the other physicists" shtick, though.

> That's it, that's the entire position ... that's not a lot of substance With reference to 2 specific papers, one by Weinberg, the other by Shaposhnikov and Wetterich; which she claims are overlooked; and the correct prediction in the second paper. Is that not a little more substance?

I don't think so. She's making a meta comment about those papers. Also, it feels like you're trying to get me to say something, but I don't know what. I already said that I don't think this position is particularly controversial. She thinks QG is less mysterious than other physicists believe, big deal.

Re: Two physicists who correctly predicted the mass of Higgs boson [video]

#33

Post by kragen »

mr_mitm wrote: post #17
kragen wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, but this means that if you divide people into those with controversial opinions, and those without, you should direct 100% of your listening to the first group. at some point you will have to be more selective than that, but that's clearly the first step

You can't make that division. Controversialness is not binary. Almost every researcher has a few controversial ideas, that's just natural when trying to push the envelope. Unfortunately, some like to be controversial for the sake of being controversial, and some are so far out there that it would be a waste of time to listen to them.

having controversial ideas is unavoidable when you think, and sure, you can have more or less of them. but if you have none then you're not thinking and there's no benefit in listening to you

Re: Two physicists who correctly predicted the mass of Higgs boson [video]

#34

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

mr_mitm wrote: post #31
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's it, that's the entire position ... that's not a lot of substance With reference to 2 specific papers, one by Weinberg, the other by Shaposhnikov and Wetterich; which she claims are overlooked; and the correct prediction in the second paper. Is that not a little more substance?

I don't think so. She's making a meta comment about those papers. Also, it feels like you're trying to get me to say something, but I don't know what. I already said that I don't think this position is particularly controversial. She thinks QG is less mysterious than other physicists believe, big deal.

I'm not trying to get you to say any particular thing; rather to engage with her claims (tell us how they're wrong if you like). I think we're now approaching that, so thank you for the commentary.

Re: Two physicists who correctly predicted the mass of Higgs boson [video]

#35

Post by hyperthesis »

Joel_Mckay wrote: post #10

“My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those who do the work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the first group; there was much less competition there.” (Indira Gandhi)

It's amazing how impressive your achievements can be if you don't mind who gets the credit. https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/12/21/doing-good-selfless...

Re: Two physicists who correctly predicted the mass of Higgs boson [video]

#36

Post by Dalewyn »

bmitc wrote: post #20
Joel_Mckay wrote: post #10

“My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those who do the work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the first group; there was much less competition there.” (Indira Gandhi)

I think I actually disagree with Gandhi here. Lol. There are a lot of people that do the work. The numbers of those who take the credit are much less. However, there is usually a power imbalance that yields to their ability to do so. So it's not about numbers. It's about power.

People who do the work aren't necessarily competing with each other.

People who take the credit are, almost by definition, competing with each other.

Re: Two physicists who correctly predicted the mass of Higgs boson [video]

#37

Post by mr_mitm »

kragen wrote: post #33
mr_mitm wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't make that division. Controversialness is not binary. Almost every researcher has a few controversial ideas, that's just natural when trying to push the envelope. Unfortunately, some like to be controversial for the sake of being controversial, and some are so far out there that it would be a waste of time to listen to them.

having controversial ideas is unavoidable when you think, and sure, you can have more or less of them. but if you have none then you're not thinking and there's no benefit in listening to you

Unless I misunderstood you, you're saying that every undergrad textbook is not worth reading, which cannot be right. Are you assuming everyone is already aware of all the uncontroversial opinions?

I listened to many uncontroversial opinions in undergrad and grad school, and it was well worth it because they were all new to me. It's like Picasso said: you need to know the rules before you can break them. Learn the uncontroversial status quo first, then listen to the uncontroversial stuff or come up with your own. Skipping the uncontroversial would be a mistake.

Re: Two physicists who correctly predicted the mass of Higgs boson [video]

#38

Post by kragen »

mr_mitm wrote: post #37
kragen wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

having controversial ideas is unavoidable when you think, and sure, you can have more or less of them. but if you have none then you're not thinking and there's no benefit in listening to you

Unless I misunderstood you, you're saying that every undergrad textbook is not worth reading, which cannot be right. Are you assuming everyone is already aware of all the uncontroversial opinions? I listened to many uncontroversial opinions in undergrad and grad school, and it was well worth it because they were all new to me. It's like Picasso said: you need to know the rules before you can break them. Learn the unc…

you have a point. while biology textbooks might be controversial among creationists, and physics textbooks might be controversial among flat-earthers, in mainstream society the only thing controversial about them is the idea that they're worth devoting attention to

on the other hand, if the authors of the textbooks don't have any controversial ideas, they probably aren't qualified to write the textbooks and will fill them with their half-understood memories of what someone else told them, which is more likely than not false in the first place. (examples abound: https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2001/01/16/1...) ideally you want the authors of your textbooks to habitually practice the kind of critical thinking that will enable them to avoid filling the textbooks with errors, and which also guarantees that they will have controversial opinions

case in point: you're a lot better off learning chemistry from linus pauling's physical chemistry than from 95% of current textbooks, both because it's better written and because it's better thought out and more carefully written. as far as i can tell, the book doesn't have any controversial opinions in it, but pauling notoriously did; at some point he became convinced megadoses of vitamin c were great for your health. i'm pretty sure he was wrong about that, but at the time it was controversial

Re: Two physicists who correctly predicted the mass of Higgs boson [video]

#39

Post by Joel_Mckay »

readthenotes1 wrote: post #30
bmitc wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I actually disagree with Gandhi here. Lol. There are a lot of people that do the work. The numbers of those who take the credit are much less. However, there is usually a power imbalance that yields to their ability to do so. So it's not about numbers. It's about power.

Ghandi did not say half the people do the work and half the people take the credit, which is what it sounds like your disagreement is with. And of course, many binary segmentations work well for most cases and fail in unusual cases that can generally ignored.

You failed to understand the hilarious facets of Indira Gandhi's quote.

I'd explain why your informal fallacy is off-topic, but am rather focused on goldfish crackers and jellybeans at the moment.

Have a Gloriously wonderful day =)

Re: Two physicists who correctly predicted the mass of Higgs boson [video]

#40

Post by shermantanktop »

Joel_Mckay wrote: post #10

“My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those who do the work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the first group; there was much less competition there.” (Indira Gandhi)

There are unfortunately a lot of hard workers who think credit magically appears when you are smart enough, valuable enough, etc., and that seeking appropriate credit is beneath their dignity. This attitude often nicely coincides with their complete lack of skill at sticking up for themselves.

There is no shame in shining a bit of light on your own value. Just don’t make it blazing sun pointing at a small accomplishment.

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