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Rising Temperatures in the Netherlands

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Re: Rising Temperatures in the Netherlands

#31
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If history has taught us anything, the idea of "settled science" is as anti science as it comes.

Correct words, but blatantly misleading as a concept. As an example: sure, Einstein found in the 1900s that Newton's theory of gravity from the 1600s was wrong, but it's wrong to such a degree that it doesn't matter for everyday applications and we still use and teach Newton's law of universal gravitation because it's a very good approximation with a very simple formula. If we had based the mechanism of climate chang…

How do you test the predictions of climate science models? I have never found a satisfactory explanation.

There is insufficient data for backtesting models of that complexity.

Arrhenius's original model have help up pretty well, but it is also simple.

Some models from decades ago including some that were very widely publicised in the 80s/90s have been badly wrong.

Re: Rising Temperatures in the Netherlands

#32
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If history has taught us anything, the idea of "settled science" is as anti science as it comes.

Asimov has refuted this argument more eloquently than I could here: https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~dbalmer/eportfolio/Nature%20of%20...

That's a rather huge document just to respond to a single sentence (with someone's highlights, not sure if those are yours or whether to otherwise heed them). Feels a bit asymmetrical in the amount of effort one has to put in to understand your comment/point.

From reading the first page, I would say that this could be a summary / an answer to the statement of the person above you:

> when people thought the earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together.

(The document seems to assume that you know the earth is an oblate spheroid or something: rather close to spherical, but off enough that it's noticeable under certain circumstances such as spaceflight.)

If that is indeed what you meant to say, I would recommend citing that part and adding the link for reference. That probably helps more people than just posting the document link by itself

Re: Rising Temperatures in the Netherlands

#33

It’s hard to believe how many visitors to HN are climate science deniers. This is equivalent to claiming the earth is flat, denying the value of vaccines, or arguing that we didn’t really land on the moon.

I think at this point we have little choice but to live in denial. I’ve lived in South Texas my entire life, but this summer was the most brutal one I’ve ever seen. Hit new highs in actual temperature and heat index of course, but it was just the months-long unrelenting nature of it that hurt my soul. I’ve never seen so many dead trees and so many dead animals on the street. My co-workers well failed as did many of his neighbors.

What am I supposed to do about any of that? How am I supposed to believe in the future if this is still the early days of climate change with who knows what new horrors to come in a decade or two?

And so we go on because what else can we do? Mostly I’m just glad I never wanted to have children because I can’t imagine what it is like for them as they grow up and realize what awaits them.

Re: Rising Temperatures in the Netherlands

#35

It’s hard to believe how many visitors to HN are climate science deniers. This is equivalent to claiming the earth is flat, denying the value of vaccines, or arguing that we didn’t really land on the moon.

A large proportion of HN's audience is comprised of get-rich-quick techbros (and wannabe get-rich-quick techbros) for whom anti-intellectualism is a favorite pastime and "fuck you, got mine" is the golden rule.

Re: Rising Temperatures in the Netherlands

#36
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's impossible to determine if this was satire.

It the perfect exception to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor

Willful incompetence is indistinguishable from malice, and even accidental incompetence becomes malice if wielded by a figure with any modicum of power. Hanlon's razor is among the most backwards memes ever devised.

Re: Rising Temperatures in the Netherlands

#37
post #31
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct words, but blatantly misleading as a concept. As an example: sure, Einstein found in the 1900s that Newton's theory of gravity from the 1600s was wrong, but it's wrong to such a degree that it doesn't matter for everyday applications and we still use and teach Newton's law of universal gravitation because it's a very good approximation with a very simple formula. If we had based the mechanism of climate chang…

How do you test the predictions of climate science models? I have never found a satisfactory explanation. There is insufficient data for backtesting models of that complexity. Arrhenius's original model have help up pretty well, but it is also simple. Some models from decades ago including some that were very widely publicised in the 80s/90s have been badly wrong.

Answering that to the detail that I feel it requires to prove beyond doubt, would likely take about as much time as doing a meta-analysis on the topic. Here's some starting points:

https://www.climate.gov/news-features/climate-qa/what-eviden...

> We know this warming is largely caused by human activities because the key role that carbon dioxide plays in maintaining Earth’s natural greenhouse effect has been understood since the mid-1800s. Unless it is offset by some equally large cooling influence, more atmospheric carbon dioxide will lead to warmer surface temperatures. Since 1800, the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere has increased from about 280 parts per million to 410 ppm in 2019. We know from both its rapid increase and its isotopic “fingerprint” that the source of this new carbon dioxide is fossil fuels, and not natural sources like forest fires, volcanoes, or outgassing from the ocean. [...] no other known climate influences have changed enough to account for the observed warming trend

If you're wondering how to establish causality in the first place, when we can't do experiments (we could hardly add and remove a significant amount of emissions at will to see what effect it has), this article provides two methods: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7081045/ The problem is not unique to climate science. Quoting the "background" section:

> In clinical medical research, causality is demonstrated by randomized controlled trials (RCTs). Often, however, an RCT cannot be conducted for ethical reasons, and sometimes for practical reasons as well. In such cases, knowledge can be derived from an observational study instead. In this article, we present two methods that have not been widely used in medical research to date.

Beyond global warming, much easier to study is the effect that air pollution has on humans. Stopping coal power plants and combustion engine vehicles in cities would also extend millions of people's healthy years of life every year. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_pollution

> Outdoor air pollution attributable to fossil fuel use alone causes ~3.61 million deaths annually, making it one of the top contributors to human death

The solutions we have today (using wind, water, sun, and fission) that reduce warming and improve health are not perfect, but my understanding is that they are better

Re: Rising Temperatures in the Netherlands

#38
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If history has taught us anything, the idea of "settled science" is as anti science as it comes.

Asimov has refuted this argument more eloquently than I could here: https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~dbalmer/eportfolio/Nature%20of%20...

That seems to be an uncharacteristically poorly thought out argument from Asimov, who I have immense respect for otherwise. He's engaging in a simple strawman! The issue is him (Asimov) being critiqued for thinking we have finally gotten everything, more or less, correct - finally. The critic alleges to Asimov that he's falling for what I call 'the arrogance of the present.' For great minds in past centuries also certainly thought they had finally, more or less, worked everything out, and were invariably proven wrong. So what makes now different, beyond the fact that 'now' is the time we live in?

Asimov's argument is that modern ideas are 'less wrong' than those of times past. He then goes on to talk about flat Earth and geocentric views of times past, going so far as to literally suggest his critic, refusing to accept any certainty, might believe the Earth could be determined to be a cube next year. That's just deeply disingenuous by Asimov, and I suspect the issue flustered him.

The critic was obviously not suggesting that next year we might decide the Earth is cubical, but referencing modern theories like the luminiferous aether [1]. Asimov would have certainly been aware of such, but as I suspect you might not - it's an extremely interesting tale. The aether was had a tremendous amount of science and support around it. And it was also completely and absolutely wrong. Not incomplete, not even less wrong, just plain wrong. It was only proven to be wrong in the famous (and quite elaborate, by the standard of the times) Michelson-Morley experiment. [2] Yet so strongly supported was the aether, that Michelson actually assumed he made an experimental mistake when he failed to detect the aether. He rejected his own discovery! He has a very famous quote:

---

"The more important fundamental laws and facts of physical science have all been discovered, and these are now so firmly established that the possibility of their ever being supplanted in consequence of new discoveries is exceedingly remote... Our future discoveries must be looked for in the sixth place of decimals."

---

That quote was made in 1894, 7 years after proving the aether (and ultimately centuries of established science prior) wrong! He was still under the belief that he simply had yet to achieve the precision necessary to measure the aether! In fact so compelling was it, that it was really finally only put to rest by relativity, which showed the absurd nature of our reality - that the speed of light is a constant from all frames of reference. That only kicked off in 1905. And indeed there's every reason to expect that some, if not much, of what we think today may simply end up being seen as the aether of our times - well supported, logical, wrong.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminiferous_aether

[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelson%E2%80%93Morley_exper...

Re: Rising Temperatures in the Netherlands

#40
It should be more extreme for regions/countries closer to the North Pole. Temperature anomalies for i.e. Siberia had been more than +4ºC in recent years. And those regions may weight more than others because the positive feedback loops happening there that will affect the whole planet.
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