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Computers are an inherently oppressive technology (2022)

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Re: Computers are an inherently oppressive technology (2022)

#31

Post by salawat »

paulolc wrote: post #29
mkii wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charlie Booker, of Black Mirror fame, said (paraphrasing): it's not technology that sucks -- it's people.

No it's not. People are great. The problem is that we are not OK. When can't help ourselves, much less others. A lot of us are sick and don't have help. We are silently succumbing to the suffering of an increasingly dehumanizing environment. Machines should be beside us, to help. Not between us and stop us from fully interact with each other.

>People are great. The problem is that we are not OK.

Come again? Seems like the latter disproves the former. After all, if people are so great, why would they build a machine that proliferates suffering?

What kind of man builds a machine to kill a girl? A smart one.

"Smart" does not imply good, nor virtuous. Merely capable.

Re: Computers are an inherently oppressive technology (2022)

#32

Post by fargle »

paulolc wrote: post #29
mkii wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charlie Booker, of Black Mirror fame, said (paraphrasing): it's not technology that sucks -- it's people.

No it's not. People are great. The problem is that we are not OK. When can't help ourselves, much less others. A lot of us are sick and don't have help. We are silently succumbing to the suffering of an increasingly dehumanizing environment. Machines should be beside us, to help. Not between us and stop us from fully interact with each other.

> The problem is that we are not OK. When can't help ourselves, much less others. A lot of us are sick and don't have help. We are silently succumbing to the suffering of an increasingly dehumanizing environment

ok, maybe? i don't think that's unanimously true

> Machines should be beside us, to help. Not between us and stop us from fully interact with each other.

and who puts them there and uses them as such?

who comes up with things like DRM'd juice packets?

people anthropomorphize machines:

    "the car rolled over and crushed..." or "the train doors closed in his face"
No.

    "the reckless driver rolled his car..."
    "the uncaring conductor closed the doors in his face"
    "the bureaucratic corporation and engineers designed the train leaving no way to override the doors by the operator"
not as romantic, but closer to the truth.

machines, computers included, are simply powerful levers. they amplify forces applied - good or evil or dehumanizing - by their users. nothing more.

not all people are good, and when those people use powerful machines to amplify their intentions, it can have enormous negative effects.

Re: Computers are an inherently oppressive technology (2022)

#33

Post by Tagbert »

vouaobrasil wrote: post #22
ddj231 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And replace it with what? The scary part of suggestions of “tear it all down” is how do we know that the replacement will be any better? In the grand scheme of things the West is in a state of abundance and luxury. Much more so than the communist experiments ever achieved. Additionally global poverty has been trending down for decades. While global literacy has greatly increased. The key strength of a free-market see…

I think anything that ends ecological destruction and rising CO2 levels will be better than what we have now. We will just have to be brave and work within such a new system instead of being scared children surrounded by our technology. We have solved nuclear fission power, created vaccines for COVID, and went to the moon. Surely we can go back to a world of greater sustainability than now. Plenty of older societies…

We have a model for what happens when you “bring down the system”. Do you think it would be better if we were all living in the equivalent of Somalia? It can be very difficult to engineer a stable revolution and all too often it ends up in chaos.

Re: Computers are an inherently oppressive technology (2022)

#34

Post by necovek »

harimau777 wrote: post #12
necovek wrote: post #8

While the article acknowledges that another way to look at computers/machines is to call them "incorruptible", it sticks to "ruthless" and "oppression" throughout. Instead, I'd use a different, neutral term like someone used for nature here: they are indifferent to our emotions. But that's about right: so are shovels, or meteorites, waterfalls, or a rock falling off a cliff. The main difference is that most of those…

Is a difference perhaps that computers tend to operate even when someone isn't directly using them in a way that most tools do not? Something like a shovel or even a forklift only operates while someone is there using it. Something like a sign or a barricade "operates" all of the time, but an individual can often move it if they need to (e.g. if a "road closed" barricade was poorly placed such that it blocks an unrel…

Somewhat, but you get the same with animals we've used as "tools" for a long time (horses, donkeys and cows spring to mind).

There are plenty of things that can kill or hurt us that we've made that have no active operator either (I mentioned buildings and roads/bridges collapsing, and one could even place a shovel on a pile that slips or falls off a truck and hurts you; or using a wire gauge that's too thin for electric current it carries; or...). Lack of care (or expertise) in whatever humans construct or build can harm you without having an operator or any automation.

Re: Computers are an inherently oppressive technology (2022)

#35

Post by tweedledot »

haltist wrote: post #2

A few weeks ago I was taking the train but before boarding I noticed two police officers doing their daily patrol and started chatting with them about a crazy lady at the top of the station's stairs. They said they couldn't do anything because it was not their job to take care of the insane to which I couldn't really say anything other than "I guess that sounds about right". The train I was going to take started to d…

To maintain the level of throughput we expect and need, trains have to run to a rigid schedule. If things were re-jigged so that trains could leave a bit late for some reason or other, the resulting reduction in throughput and corresponding passenger miles would outweigh your inconvenience. After all, trains drove the mass adoption of accurate timekeeping.

Re: Computers are an inherently oppressive technology (2022)

#36

Post by haltist »

tweedledot wrote: post #35
haltist wrote: post #2

A few weeks ago I was taking the train but before boarding I noticed two police officers doing their daily patrol and started chatting with them about a crazy lady at the top of the station's stairs. They said they couldn't do anything because it was not their job to take care of the insane to which I couldn't really say anything other than "I guess that sounds about right". The train I was going to take started to d…

To maintain the level of throughput we expect and need, trains have to run to a rigid schedule. If things were re-jigged so that trains could leave a bit late for some reason or other, the resulting reduction in throughput and corresponding passenger miles would outweigh your inconvenience. After all, trains drove the mass adoption of accurate timekeeping.

This is accounted for in my "panoptic computronium cathedral"™ with reconfigurable and individual tube systems for transporting individuals at high speeds [1]. The AGI decides who needs to be where and for what purposes and then reconfigures the tube system to accomplish the task. It is much more efficient and does not require any time keeping devices.

1: https://imgur.com/wxS9FDh

Re: Computers are an inherently oppressive technology (2022)

#37

Post by tweedledot »

haltist wrote: post #36
tweedledot wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To maintain the level of throughput we expect and need, trains have to run to a rigid schedule. If things were re-jigged so that trains could leave a bit late for some reason or other, the resulting reduction in throughput and corresponding passenger miles would outweigh your inconvenience. After all, trains drove the mass adoption of accurate timekeeping.

This is accounted for in my "panoptic computronium cathedral"™ with reconfigurable and individual tube systems for transporting individuals at high speeds [1]. The AGI decides who needs to be where and for what purposes and then reconfigures the tube system to accomplish the task. It is much more efficient and does not require any time keeping devices. 1: https://imgur.com/wxS9FDh

Sounds very similar to the existing road infrastructure.

Re: Computers are an inherently oppressive technology (2022)

#38

Post by haltist »

tweedledot wrote: post #37
haltist wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is accounted for in my "panoptic computronium cathedral"™ with reconfigurable and individual tube systems for transporting individuals at high speeds [1]. The AGI decides who needs to be where and for what purposes and then reconfigures the tube system to accomplish the task. It is much more efficient and does not require any time keeping devices. 1: https://imgur.com/wxS9FDh

Sounds very similar to the existing road infrastructure.

The tubes prevent accidents, that is the main innovation.

Re: Computers are an inherently oppressive technology (2022)

#39

Post by friend_and_foe »

haltist wrote: post #2

A few weeks ago I was taking the train but before boarding I noticed two police officers doing their daily patrol and started chatting with them about a crazy lady at the top of the station's stairs. They said they couldn't do anything because it was not their job to take care of the insane to which I couldn't really say anything other than "I guess that sounds about right". The train I was going to take started to d…

I think this is a phenomenon we observe when people become parts of machines. The cops, the conductor, a bureaucrat at a paperwork filing office, they all take on this position of neutrality, of deference to the system in which they function. Any autonomy they exercise becomes an unpredictability in the smooth operation of the machine, one which they believe is more good than bad and a worthwhile trade off, so in situations where the answer is not clear, the mechanics of the machine must be maintained. Truly they are cogs in a machine.

Re: Computers are an inherently oppressive technology (2022)

#40

Post by ishandotpage »

friend_and_foe wrote: post #39
haltist wrote: post #2

A few weeks ago I was taking the train but before boarding I noticed two police officers doing their daily patrol and started chatting with them about a crazy lady at the top of the station's stairs. They said they couldn't do anything because it was not their job to take care of the insane to which I couldn't really say anything other than "I guess that sounds about right". The train I was going to take started to d…

I think this is a phenomenon we observe when people become parts of machines. The cops, the conductor, a bureaucrat at a paperwork filing office, they all take on this position of neutrality, of deference to the system in which they function. Any autonomy they exercise becomes an unpredictability in the smooth operation of the machine, one which they believe is more good than bad and a worthwhile trade off, so in sit…

In a McLuhanistic interpretation,

"We become what we behold. We shape our tools and then our tools shape us"

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