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Europe inches closer to insisting gig workers are treated as employees

theregister.com

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Re: Europe inches closer to insisting gig workers are treated as employees

#31

Post by libertine »

chucke1992 wrote: post #26

More reasons for Europe to get less investments

The real question is: is that the type of investment and investors you want in the EU?

This isn't just about investors, it's also about getting access to systems that people with employment contracts have, that gig workers don't have.

Why should they be treated as second-class citizens?

So not only do companies save on employment expenses, and offload them to the gig workers (who are underpaid generally), but they also have limited access to the market for things like credit.

Poor investors, right?

Re: Europe inches closer to insisting gig workers are treated as employees

#33

Post by lm28469 »

gruez wrote: post #20
lm28469 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So it's only gig working if you work full time? Nope > What about other freelancers that work full time? Should they be classed as employees too, or are we singling out gig workers here? These questions are answered in the article

The article says >It also sets rules that mean digital platform workers will be considered employees if at least two of the following five conditions are met: >* If the employer caps worker payments; >* If the employer supervises worker performance, directly or electronically; >* If the employer has control over the distribution or allocation of tasks; >* If the employer has control over working conditions and workin…

> None of these are valid reasons

Nothing is naturally valid, that's why we make laws, and then things become valid or not. Some countries have laws regarding what is contracting and what isn't contracting, in the case of Uber drivers working solely for uber, making 100% of their income from Uber, &c. it's clear cut, and that's going to be the majority of cases

Re: Europe inches closer to insisting gig workers are treated as employees

#34

Post by lm28469 »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #24
gruez wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article says >It also sets rules that mean digital platform workers will be considered employees if at least two of the following five conditions are met: >* If the employer caps worker payments; >* If the employer supervises worker performance, directly or electronically; >* If the employer has control over the distribution or allocation of tasks; >* If the employer has control over working conditions and workin…

Also all of those rules are so vague, it could be argued in any case someone is doing some of that in any sort of deal. 1. Company A has a max budget for contractor B or project B. 2. In most cases performance is supervised at least to some extent? 3. Not sure what that exactly means. What are tasks? What is control of distribution or allocation? 4. What does control mean? What if they have a dynamic pricing rate whi…

> Also all of those rules are so vague,

Still less vague than the current regulation, and it'll allow thousands of people to get social benefits/vacations/retirement/&c.

Re: Europe inches closer to insisting gig workers are treated as employees

#35

Post by Ekaros »

gruez wrote: post #25
lm28469 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because some people are genuinely contractors while others are disguised employees. I also don't see the inherent problem with contractors, some jobs require it, some people want the flexibility. The issue with "gig workers" is that a lot of them end up with all the disadvantage of being employe, all the disadvantage of being contractors, and none of the benefits of either.

But "no contribution to retirement, no paid vacations, no parental leave, no unemployment benefits, &c." seem like pretty big concerns for most workers. I don't see how they evaporate for non-gig contract workers.

Non-gig contract workers charge more and so are expected to pay that all by themselves. Often they do not, but usually they are at level where they should be able to do it.

That is why prices for lot of work is so expensive.

Re: Europe inches closer to insisting gig workers are treated as employees

#36

Post by impossiblefork »

hunglee2 wrote: post #2

This is probably bad news on aggregate The positive intent to give citizens greater protections is laudable but gig working is not always a straight forward 'capitalism bad' exploitation as it is often characterised. For many, it is the only type of job / income they can secure (i.e recent immigrant) and otherwise would be locked out of the legal economy altogether and will transition into the _illegal_ economy for w…

It's important to understand though, that most of this work is not sufficient to sustain society. There's a report from the Centraal Planbureau in the Netherlands 'Immigration and the Dutch Economy' (https://www.cpb.nl/sites/default/files/publicaties/download/...).

Take a look at page 61 and the graph 'age profile of net contributions'. As you see, even the average non-Western immigrant, which of course includes highly productive people from places like Japan, India, etc. has a very bad curve.

A gig worker is almost certainly going to have a curve at least that bad, i.e. he has a negative net contribution to the state economy. It might well be better to try to find people something where they can make a net contribution than to have them try to offset the costs by doing what is in effect random work.

Re: Europe inches closer to insisting gig workers are treated as employees

#37

Post by rtsil »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #23
lm28469 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some are some aren't. The uber driver with 10k trips per year isn't, the student delivering food on saturday is.

What about a gig worker who works whenever they feel like, get up to 150 hours per month overall, but also use 3 different Uber like companies to constantly compare which one has better offering at the time?

The law will apply on a case by case basis, it's not a decision to force all gig workers to be treated as employees. TFA gives the criteria by which each case will be evaluated.

Re: Europe inches closer to insisting gig workers are treated as employees

#38

Post by BobaFloutist »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #23
lm28469 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some are some aren't. The uber driver with 10k trips per year isn't, the student delivering food on saturday is.

What about a gig worker who works whenever they feel like, get up to 150 hours per month overall, but also use 3 different Uber like companies to constantly compare which one has better offering at the time?

Are they penalized for turning down trips that don't meet their standards? Are they given the agency to set their rates?

Re: Europe inches closer to insisting gig workers are treated as employees

#40

Post by rightbyte »

impossiblefork wrote: post #36
hunglee2 wrote: post #2

This is probably bad news on aggregate The positive intent to give citizens greater protections is laudable but gig working is not always a straight forward 'capitalism bad' exploitation as it is often characterised. For many, it is the only type of job / income they can secure (i.e recent immigrant) and otherwise would be locked out of the legal economy altogether and will transition into the _illegal_ economy for w…

It's important to understand though, that most of this work is not sufficient to sustain society. There's a report from the Centraal Planbureau in the Netherlands 'Immigration and the Dutch Economy' ( https://www.cpb.nl/sites/default/files/publicaties/download/... ). Take a look at page 61 and the graph 'age profile of net contributions'. As you see, even the average non-Western immigrant, which of course includes hi…

I guess that assumes wage is proportional to added value to society?
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