Choose a random compound X, feed it to rats and see what happens. Could somebody explain how does one choose X?
Most likely "anyway that is able to obtain grant money."
Chronic Buckyball Administration Doubles Rat Lifespan
31–40 of 46 posts
Re: Chronic Buckyball Administration Doubles Rat Lifespan
#32I find myself a little sceptical of articles on a website called "extreme longevity", to be honest... ... also, skimming the linked paper, the largest sample I see is "sixty rats randomly divided into 10 groups of 6 rats". I'm not sure if that's really large enough to draw any solid conclusions, and I don't see any P-values for the lifespan data -- but I freely admit I'm neither any kind of biologist nor a stats expe…
Well, it was published in a real journal (Biomaterials) with an impact factor of 7.882. So the research is theoretically peer-reviewed and solid, in that the paper itself isn't just making things up.
Re: Chronic Buckyball Administration Doubles Rat Lifespan
#33So what might be going on here? http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2012/04/a-puzzling-fuller... The average life span of the Wistar rats used is 2-3 years (24 - 36 months). This was a small study size, but that's no so important in determining whether you have an actual means of life extension if you can show that any of your study group lived much longer than usual - but it is important when it comes to the degree o…
This is not it. Fasting was done for pharmacokinetics study, not for chronic toxicity study. That two studies were separate is evident from the description, e.g. rats were acclimated for 7 days for pharmacokinetics study and 14 days for chronic toxicity study.
That is also a plausible reading of the paper. It doesn't look like they go into any great detail as to the protocol for administration in the longer term study.
I'm skeptical of significant antioxidant effects in vivo from a naturally occurring compound given that antioxidants in general haven't done much for longevity without being heavily designed substances (like SkQ1, for example). Simply flooding the body with antioxidants is usually slightly worse for longevity or a null effect - they don't get to the mitochondria where they might do some good.
More information from the authors would be good. All things considered, I'm sure we'll be hearing more on this in the years ahead; people will try to replicate it, the researchers will be grilled on their work, etc.
Re: Chronic Buckyball Administration Doubles Rat Lifespan
#34Article: http://extremelongevity.net/wp-content/uploads/C60-Fullerene... The part getting the attention has to do with longevity; for that part of the article, data comes from "[t]hree groups of 6 rats". This was a single experiment in which n=6 rats received the C60 ('buckyball') composition, n=6 received just the oil, and n=6 received water (which can cause adverse effects in rats). Interestingly, a protective effe…
Could be that it's a fluke given the small groups involved.
Not likely, since statistical tests were performed to ensure that the results seen were not due to random chance. The sample size they used is actually pretty large for studies like this.
However, the study is complicated since rats are sensitive to abdominal gavages and it tends to reduce their lifespan. Similarly, there are studies that show chronic administration of olive oil increases life span.
So you have a situation where one control (water only) leads to decreased lifespan and another control (vehicle - olive oil only) tends to increase lifespan. Neither of these are ideal controls since they are known to affect the rat.
That said, they did fancy stats and presumably accounted for this fact.
Re: Chronic Buckyball Administration Doubles Rat Lifespan
#35Just discovered that google can convert long series of units.
Say you wanted to do this, at the obvious risk of some undiscovered toxicity, and say you weigh 200lbs.
At a cost of fullerene-c60 of $592 for 5 grams, at 1.7mg/kg, you're daily dose costs $18.26 http://www.google.com/?q=1.7mg%2Fkg+x+200lbs+x+592%2F5+dolla...
Even worse, however, is the olive oil you have to eat each day, with the C60 disolved into it is 39 teaspoons! http://www.google.com/?q=1.7+mg/kg+/+0.8+mg/ml+x+200+lbs+to+...
Which is 4/5ths of a cup of oil per day.
EDIT: I guess they didn't actually get a daily dose.
we treated the rats daily only during 7 days and weekly
during the first two months, then every two weeks until
one control rat died.
After five months of treatment (M15) one rat treated with
water only exhibited some palpable tumours in the
abdomen region. Due to the rapid development of tumours
(about 4 cm of diameter) this rat died at M17. As rats
are known to be sensitive to gavages, we decided to stop
the treatment for all rats and to observe their
behaviour and overall survival.
Re: Chronic Buckyball Administration Doubles Rat Lifespan
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
Could be that it's a fluke given the small groups involved.
Not likely, since statistical tests were performed to ensure that the results seen were not due to random chance. The sample size they used is actually pretty large for studies like this. However, the study is complicated since rats are sensitive to abdominal gavages and it tends to reduce their lifespan. Similarly, there are studies that show chronic administration of olive oil increases life span. So you have a sit…
An n of six per arm in a three-arm study is not "actually pretty large."
Re: Chronic Buckyball Administration Doubles Rat Lifespan
#37Article: http://extremelongevity.net/wp-content/uploads/C60-Fullerene... The part getting the attention has to do with longevity; for that part of the article, data comes from "[t]hree groups of 6 rats". This was a single experiment in which n=6 rats received the C60 ('buckyball') composition, n=6 received just the oil, and n=6 received water (which can cause adverse effects in rats). Interestingly, a protective effe…
Could be that it's a fluke given the small groups involved.
That's exactly the message my summary intended to convey :-)
Re: Chronic Buckyball Administration Doubles Rat Lifespan
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
Could be that it's a fluke given the small groups involved.
Not likely, since statistical tests were performed to ensure that the results seen were not due to random chance. The sample size they used is actually pretty large for studies like this. However, the study is complicated since rats are sensitive to abdominal gavages and it tends to reduce their lifespan. Similarly, there are studies that show chronic administration of olive oil increases life span. So you have a sit…
No amount of fancy accounting can ever save someone from the fact that they performed one experiment one time with a treatment group of 6. Extraordinary claims require at least a replicated experiment.
Re: Chronic Buckyball Administration Doubles Rat Lifespan
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
Could be that it's a fluke given the small groups involved.
Not likely, since statistical tests were performed to ensure that the results seen were not due to random chance. The sample size they used is actually pretty large for studies like this. However, the study is complicated since rats are sensitive to abdominal gavages and it tends to reduce their lifespan. Similarly, there are studies that show chronic administration of olive oil increases life span. So you have a sit…
Those tests for statistical significance aren't very strong in this case. It might be that the study in question only had a 5% chance of giving this result by chance, but given that this particular study was selected to our attention for news-worthiness the actual chance of it being a valid result are far less than 95%[1]. Also, a sizeable minority of published papers have statistical errors, even in good journals[2].
[1]http://xkcd.com/882/ [2]http://www.economist.com/node/2724226
Re: Chronic Buckyball Administration Doubles Rat Lifespan
#40Just discovered that google can convert long series of units. Say you wanted to do this, at the obvious risk of some undiscovered toxicity, and say you weigh 200lbs. At a cost of fullerene-c60 of $592 for 5 grams, at 1.7mg/kg, you're daily dose costs $18.26 http://www.google.com/?q=1.7mg%2Fkg+x+200lbs+x+592%2F5+dolla... Even worse, however, is the olive oil you have to eat each day, with the C60 disolved into it is 3…
Human dosing is different than animal dosing. It doesn't translate straight mg/kg.