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Is it ethical to keep a copy of the code or designs you did for your employer, for your reference?

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Re: Is it ethical to keep a copy of the code or designs you did for your employer, for your reference?

#31

Post by edw519 »

paulgb wrote: post #26
edw519 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's see if I have this right. Someone paid you to provide them with something for competitive purposes (if it's business, why else?). Now you're using their IP to provide someone else (who may be their competitor) with something for competitive purposes. It's NOT up to you to determine who is competing with whom, how important someone's IP is to them. or whether or not "it's a big deal". I've seen multi-million dol…

Again, I respect your sense of ethics and I think the world would be a better place if everyone paid half as much attention to ethics as you do. That said, I still think that there are occasions where referring to past code is entirely ethical. Say for example I forgot the mod_rewrite flag to do what I need, but I used the same flag for a client in the past and I still have a copy on my server. Instead of Googling ar…

How does your client feel about their IP being "still...on my server"?

Re: Is it ethical to keep a copy of the code or designs you did for your employer, for your reference?

#32

Post by nostrademons »

paulgb wrote: post #26
edw519 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's see if I have this right. Someone paid you to provide them with something for competitive purposes (if it's business, why else?). Now you're using their IP to provide someone else (who may be their competitor) with something for competitive purposes. It's NOT up to you to determine who is competing with whom, how important someone's IP is to them. or whether or not "it's a big deal". I've seen multi-million dol…

Again, I respect your sense of ethics and I think the world would be a better place if everyone paid half as much attention to ethics as you do. That said, I still think that there are occasions where referring to past code is entirely ethical. Say for example I forgot the mod_rewrite flag to do what I need, but I used the same flag for a client in the past and I still have a copy on my server. Instead of Googling ar…

I don't think that's all that bad - you're looking for stuff that's public information anyway, and it just so happens that your employer made use of that public information as well. It's like Apple and Microsoft both ripping off Xerox's GUI - Microsoft didn't take anything from Apple, it's just that they both originally took from the same source.

I'd draw the line at using the result of previous problem-solving that you've done for your employer. For example, in the course of my employment, I wrote a slider widget for my employer's product. I need a slider widget for my startup. Rather than using the code I wrote for my employer, I'm grabbing another open-source slider widget and modifying it as necessary. Same with utility classes - my employer wrote an OrderedDict class in Python, I need an ordered dictionary, rather than using my employer's I grabbed a third-party class off the net.

Re: Is it ethical to keep a copy of the code or designs you did for your employer, for your reference?

#33

Post by paulgb »

edw519 wrote: post #31
paulgb wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I respect your sense of ethics and I think the world would be a better place if everyone paid half as much attention to ethics as you do. That said, I still think that there are occasions where referring to past code is entirely ethical. Say for example I forgot the mod_rewrite flag to do what I need, but I used the same flag for a client in the past and I still have a copy on my server. Instead of Googling ar…

How does your client feel about their IP being "still...on my server"?

It's helpful when they accidentally delete their copy multiple times (Yeah, this has actually happened to me. The client blamed it on a hard drive crash, but what are the changes of that happening twice in a row?). I am not exactly working with high-end clients, just doing a few jobs here and there to help cover my tuition.

Edit: I don't know why someone modded down the parent comment, you did make a valid point.

Re: Is it ethical to keep a copy of the code or designs you did for your employer, for your reference?

#34

Post by edw519 »

paulgb wrote: post #26
edw519 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's see if I have this right. Someone paid you to provide them with something for competitive purposes (if it's business, why else?). Now you're using their IP to provide someone else (who may be their competitor) with something for competitive purposes. It's NOT up to you to determine who is competing with whom, how important someone's IP is to them. or whether or not "it's a big deal". I've seen multi-million dol…

Again, I respect your sense of ethics and I think the world would be a better place if everyone paid half as much attention to ethics as you do. That said, I still think that there are occasions where referring to past code is entirely ethical. Say for example I forgot the mod_rewrite flag to do what I need, but I used the same flag for a client in the past and I still have a copy on my server. Instead of Googling ar…

I don't want to debate fine points of ethics (I know, too late), but I thought I'd share a little more background, and then shut up. OK?

Believe me, I'm not holier than thou - you should hear me in traffic. But I really think that this is a black and white issue. I don't see any difference between illegal downloading and walking out of Walgreen's with a CD in your pocket. Or putting that extra chicken leg from the buffet into your purse. "They'd just have to throw it away, anyway." I don't care. Right is right and wrong is wrong.

I don't ever want anyone to get the impression I'd employ situational ethics in business (or anywhere else, either). And I do not want to knowingly conduct business with anyone that does. It's simply not worth it, period.

I once had a partner that drew the ethical line where it was most convenient for him. First, he copied software from one account to another. Then, he went through a client's employee's drawers looking for something to "save us a lot of time". Before I realized it, he was making back door deals with clients and vendors because he "didn't think I'd mind; it was money I'd wouldn't have ever seen anyway."

I'm certainly not suggesting that everyone progresses down that path, or that reusing tidbits of code is the same as murder. It's just that when it's time to draw an ethical line in the sand, my position is clear and firm.

Just a few antecdotes to give you an idea of how strongly some business people feel about this issue:

- An acquintance of mine was earning $150 per hour advising a Fortune 1000 company which multi-million dollar enterprise package to buy. As an aside, he brought in a buddy to sell printers to his client and split the profit. He was immediately fired and black-balled. The CEO's reasoning was, "I would have never known if we made the right decision."

- A vendor was presenting their software package to my client. They said, "We already know your industry. In fact, we sold a system to XYZ Company." My client immediately dismissed the vendor. He later said, "That's all I need. For one of his programmers to accidently say what I'm doing to an XYZ employee over coffee."

- My client went bankrupt. Their assets (including all IP) were acquired by a third party in the settlement. Imagine their surprise when they had to compete with my client's ex-employee who set himself up in a software maintenance business at 1/2 industry rates. How did he know who to call on and what software they had? The case is still in litigation, but that guy's name will forever be dirt in this town.

- A contractor at one of my clients accidently left a thumb drive on a desk he was using. It had 70,000 social security numbers on it. What were they to think?

I could go on and on. They are some real slime balls out there. There are also plenty of good people who make stupid decisions to save a little time because "it doesn't make much difference anyway". How are people supposed to know the difference?

And when it comes to technology, many business people are doubly in the dark. Sometimes, TRUST is all they've got. It's so ridiculously easy for many of us to earn a nice living (try digging ditches instead), why would you ever jeapordize that over something so trivial?

Re: Is it ethical to keep a copy of the code or designs you did for your employer, for your reference?

#35

Post by menloparkbum »

staunch wrote: post #23
menloparkbum wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right in the case of a full time employee. You are wrong in the general case of contract software engineering. Most software development contracts DO NOT have a 20 page assignment agreement that assigns copyright to the person/company paying for the work. It sounds counterintuitive and false, but that really is the case. You, the contractor, own the IP unless you sign your rights away. And even if you do, it…

You can absolutely sign away your IP rights in a contract. Unless the contract is crap it will certainly hold up in court. The contracting business would be a lot less healthy if this wasn't the case. Everything else you said is correct from what I know -- at least in California. The neat thing about the labor laws in California (and some other states) is that they protect you from signing away lots of other rights a…

Software is not mentioned under any copyright law. Thus most ownership clauses contracts will NOT hold up in court. And as randallsquared said, most of the time ownership isn't even mentioned. I'm astonished by engineers who think this is some cut and dried issue, like NickB who points out that what Juwo mentions is "illegal" when it isn't. If it was illegal, you could make a reference a law.

Software copyright and ownership issues are murky. If they were clear cut, would Facebook be running right now?

Facebook is a great example. It depends on who you believe, but it appears that Mark Zuckerburg worked on a site that was similar to Facebook, but geared towards Harvard students. For whatever reason, he bailed and started Facebook, which was pretty much the same thing, only with a bigger scope, and better.

If he stole some PHP code, is that unethical? If he stole the idea, is that unethical? What if the guys he was working with were idiots who didn't really care, and were going to only pay attention to their rinky-dink site when they weren't at rowing practice? Is it unethical to grab someone elses idea and run with it when you know they are just going to let it lay fallow?

Re: Is it ethical to keep a copy of the code or designs you did for your employer, for your reference?

#36

Post by paulgb »

edw519 wrote: post #34
paulgb wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I respect your sense of ethics and I think the world would be a better place if everyone paid half as much attention to ethics as you do. That said, I still think that there are occasions where referring to past code is entirely ethical. Say for example I forgot the mod_rewrite flag to do what I need, but I used the same flag for a client in the past and I still have a copy on my server. Instead of Googling ar…

I don't want to debate fine points of ethics (I know, too late), but I thought I'd share a little more background, and then shut up. OK? Believe me, I'm not holier than thou - you should hear me in traffic. But I really think that this is a black and white issue. I don't see any difference between illegal downloading and walking out of Walgreen's with a CD in your pocket. Or putting that extra chicken leg from the bu…

I hope it doesn't feel like a debate, I am just trying to see your side of this because if I felt that what I was doing was unethical or even in a "grey area", I would not be doing it. The reason I keep coming back to this thread is not because I want to win an argument, but because I might be wrong.

I agree with you that drawing the ethical line wherever it is most convenient is bad. In fact, I have discussed or debated ethics online a few times in the past, and I was always in your position, saying that the issue is black and white no matter how convenient it would be otherwise. Perhaps this is why I am so interested in this thread, now that I am on the other end of it.

Anyway, thanks for your insight. Although I am still not convinced that anything I did was unethical, I will think twice before looking at past work again.

Re: Is it ethical to keep a copy of the code or designs you did for your employer, for your reference?

#37

Post by edw519 »

paulgb wrote: post #36
edw519 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to debate fine points of ethics (I know, too late), but I thought I'd share a little more background, and then shut up. OK? Believe me, I'm not holier than thou - you should hear me in traffic. But I really think that this is a black and white issue. I don't see any difference between illegal downloading and walking out of Walgreen's with a CD in your pocket. Or putting that extra chicken leg from the bu…

I hope it doesn't feel like a debate, I am just trying to see your side of this because if I felt that what I was doing was unethical or even in a "grey area", I would not be doing it. The reason I keep coming back to this thread is not because I want to win an argument, but because I might be wrong. I agree with you that drawing the ethical line wherever it is most convenient is bad. In fact, I have discussed or deb…

It hasn't felt like a debate. Just a real interesting topic. And, who knows, maybe we got one of those chicken leg buffet people to thinking here - this discussion may save someone a whole bunch of trouble years down the line.

Every once in a while, it's nice to say that which goes without saying.

Re: Is it ethical to keep a copy of the code or designs you did for your employer, for your reference?

#38

Post by juwo »

edw519 wrote: post #37
paulgb wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope it doesn't feel like a debate, I am just trying to see your side of this because if I felt that what I was doing was unethical or even in a "grey area", I would not be doing it. The reason I keep coming back to this thread is not because I want to win an argument, but because I might be wrong. I agree with you that drawing the ethical line wherever it is most convenient is bad. In fact, I have discussed or deb…

It hasn't felt like a debate. Just a real interesting topic. And, who knows, maybe we got one of those chicken leg buffet people to thinking here - this discussion may save someone a whole bunch of trouble years down the line. Every once in a while, it's nice to say that which goes without saying.

well :)

which is more unethical?

the restaurant throwing away perfectly good food into the trash when there are hungry people in poorer countries (or even a few blocks away in the same city) who haven't eaten chicken in months because they cant afford it? (I know people like that).

OR

the "chicken leg buffet" person. He paid full price for his buffet, only his stomach can contain 2 legs, and he does not wish to greedily stuff himself with 6 legs.

or what if he took 4 legs on his plate, and out of a good conscience, cannot throw 2 uneaten legs away?

point: it is hard to judge other people.

Re: Is it ethical to keep a copy of the code or designs you did for your employer, for your reference?

#39

Post by staunch »

menloparkbum wrote: post #35
staunch wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can absolutely sign away your IP rights in a contract. Unless the contract is crap it will certainly hold up in court. The contracting business would be a lot less healthy if this wasn't the case. Everything else you said is correct from what I know -- at least in California. The neat thing about the labor laws in California (and some other states) is that they protect you from signing away lots of other rights a…

Software is not mentioned under any copyright law. Thus most ownership clauses contracts will NOT hold up in court. And as randallsquared said, most of the time ownership isn't even mentioned. I'm astonished by engineers who think this is some cut and dried issue, like NickB who points out that what Juwo mentions is "illegal" when it isn't. If it was illegal, you could make a reference a law. Software copyright and o…

I agree software copyright and ownership can be murky. You're completely wrong about software copyrights not being licensable/transferable via contract. It's the basis for the entire software industry and you're claiming it doesn't even exist. Courts have found software to be comparable to literary works, making most general copyright law applicable. There's also plenty of special provisions and case law.

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#117

Re: Is it ethical to keep a copy of the code or designs you did for your employer, for your reference?

#40

Post by staunch »

randallsquared wrote: post #28
staunch wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can absolutely sign away your IP rights in a contract. Unless the contract is crap it will certainly hold up in court. The contracting business would be a lot less healthy if this wasn't the case. Everything else you said is correct from what I know -- at least in California. The neat thing about the labor laws in California (and some other states) is that they protect you from signing away lots of other rights a…

I write software as the largest part of my business, and I don't think I've ever been asked to assign copyright to the purchaser. I go out of my way to point out in written materials that I use licenses like GPL, BSD, and put stuff in the public domain when that's compatible with library licenses and such, but no client has ever actually asked me about that. In my experience, people who are buying custom software don…

It depends entirely on how savvy your clients are. Do some work for a company that has an IP lawyer and you can see the difference. The way it usually works is that you grant them a non-exclusive perpetual license to the software but maintain ownership yourself. If they want ownership you charge an additional 20% on the total cost, or whatever. I recommend contractors having their own contracts drafted by a lawyer and not signing client-provided ones. Much easier to be fair that way.
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