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Oldest Pyramid Found Not in Egypt or Americas, but in Indonesia

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Re: Oldest Pyramid Found Not in Egypt or Americas, but in Indonesia

#31

Post by ceejayoz »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #29
ceejayoz wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Surface mining" involves quite a bit of industrial-scale digging. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hambach_surface_mine goes down 1,640 feet from the surface and looks like https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Bannerak... .

As I noted in the other post, the Big Hole in South Africa was dug to a depth of 240 meters by hand . Coal mines of that depth nothing special, even with 19th Century steam technology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_coal_mining "By 1856, the average depth in the Borinage was 361 meters (1,184 ft), and in 1866, 437 meters (1,434 ft) and some pits had reached down 700 to 900 meters (2,300 to 3,000 ft); one wa…

"thanks to the good pumping system" (guess what powers that) and "by the late 19th century the seams were becoming exhausted" indicate the practical limitations faced by that.

Re: Oldest Pyramid Found Not in Egypt or Americas, but in Indonesia

#32

Post by bcrosby95 »

stareatgoats wrote: post #3

This site is one of the building blocs that Graham Hancock uses to paint an alternate prehistory, involving a forgotten antediluvian civilization that was supposedly responsible for transmitting esoteric seeds of civilization to such disparate places as North America, Mesopotamia, Central America, Polynesia, Indonesia and more. He builds on older, fantastical stories about Atlantis, the lost continent of MU and other…

I've always found the definition of "civilization" a bit self serving. In particular, the "hierarchical" part. I find it interesting that the rule of the few over the many is baked into a particularly important concept.

Re: Oldest Pyramid Found Not in Egypt or Americas, but in Indonesia

#33

Post by Qwertious »

AStrangeMorrow wrote: post #11
civilitty wrote: post #2

This is the third time an article about this pyramid has made it to the front page in several weeks. It’s almost certainly BS. The authors used the SHCal20 radiocarbon dating calibration curve but tested volcanic soil samples. C14 depleted CO2 and carbonate minerals dissolved in groundwater coming from Mount Gede a few miles away will make the samples look significantly older than they actually are. SHCal20 is meant…

Miniminuteman goes over "10000 year old Indonesian pyramid" too in his 4h or so debunking of Graham Hancock ancient civilization Netflix series (the usual "big archeology doesn't want you to know about this prediluvian ancient Atlantean civilization"). Link to the relevant section of the video of this debunking series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iCIZQX9i1A&list=PLXtMIzD-Y-...

>(the usual "big archeology doesn't want you to know about this prediluvian ancient Atlantean civilization").

Which is cartoonishly absurd. Imagine how much easier applying for grants would be if you could write "we may find a 10 000 year old civilization with computers and tech rivaling, possibly even surpassing our own". That's so much better than "we're trying to discover whether 3000-year-old copper picks were usually curved at 5 degrees, or closer to 10 degrees. We suspect it's 7ish".

It's so dumb.

Re: Oldest Pyramid Found Not in Egypt or Americas, but in Indonesia

#34

Post by Qwertious »

ceejayoz wrote: post #28
Turing_Machine wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much readily accessible surface coal is left? As the reference also says, 53% of it is recoverable by surface mining. Bagger 288 is only notable for being a big shovel. It doesn't do anything that couldn't be done by guys with smaller shovels. 30 meters deep is nothing. The Big Hole in South Africa was dug to 240 meters deep by hand . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Hole Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hist…

The mine Bagger 288 services goes sixteen hundred feet deep. The Big Hole is absolutely miniscule in comparison - 42 acres - and mining for diamonds is a lot more lucrative by volume. You're not digging out https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Bannerak... by hand.

Ok but https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peatland

Re: Oldest Pyramid Found Not in Egypt or Americas, but in Indonesia

#35

Post by Qwertious »

ceejayoz wrote: post #26
Qwertious wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there, though? Perhaps discovering electricity (I.e. electric generator and motor) inevitably leads to industrialization. We don't know, since we invented both complex water-powered textile machines and steam engines well before we invented electricity, so we don't really know how a complex medieval society would have reacted to it. Also, if civilization collapses it's still fairly likely that a powerdrill will su…

> intact enough that people will look at it and play with copper spirals We've mined out all the easy copper, too.

Yeah, scavenging copper from our ruins will make a lot more sense pre-industrialization.

Re: Oldest Pyramid Found Not in Egypt or Americas, but in Indonesia

#36

Post by ceejayoz »

Qwertious wrote: post #34
ceejayoz wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mine Bagger 288 services goes sixteen hundred feet deep. The Big Hole is absolutely miniscule in comparison - 42 acres - and mining for diamonds is a lot more lucrative by volume. You're not digging out https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Bannerak... by hand.

Ok but https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peatland

"Peatlands are under threat by commercial peat harvesting" is right there in the intro. The article indicates we've already wiped out half, and that's with coal/oil available as the better option.

The question isn't "is there stuff to burn", it's "is there enough to burn to bootstrap a self-sustaining industrial economy". Our industrial revolution took place in a time where oil bubbled to the surface in Texas, coal could be dug up from rich surface seams with a shovel, and copper as pure crystals.

Re: Oldest Pyramid Found Not in Egypt or Americas, but in Indonesia

#37

Post by blacksmith_tb »

bcrosby95 wrote: post #32
stareatgoats wrote: post #3

This site is one of the building blocs that Graham Hancock uses to paint an alternate prehistory, involving a forgotten antediluvian civilization that was supposedly responsible for transmitting esoteric seeds of civilization to such disparate places as North America, Mesopotamia, Central America, Polynesia, Indonesia and more. He builds on older, fantastical stories about Atlantis, the lost continent of MU and other…

I've always found the definition of "civilization" a bit self serving. In particular, the "hierarchical" part. I find it interesting that the rule of the few over the many is baked into a particularly important concept.

Well that feels more like it's the side-effect of the English word "civilized" being used to mean "genteel and proper", and also "pertaining to large-scale societies with monumental architecture, agriculture, etc." It doesn't seem to controversial that social hierarchies are associated with all of the world civilizations we know about - I suppose that could lead to arguments about them being intrinsically better, or just necessary to organize large groups of people?

Re: Oldest Pyramid Found Not in Egypt or Americas, but in Indonesia

#38

Post by [deleted] »

stareatgoats wrote: post #3

This site is one of the building blocs that Graham Hancock uses to paint an alternate prehistory, involving a forgotten antediluvian civilization that was supposedly responsible for transmitting esoteric seeds of civilization to such disparate places as North America, Mesopotamia, Central America, Polynesia, Indonesia and more. He builds on older, fantastical stories about Atlantis, the lost continent of MU and other…

[deleted]

Re: Oldest Pyramid Found Not in Egypt or Americas, but in Indonesia

#40

Post by [deleted] »

narrator wrote: post #7

I think one implication of there being ancient advanced societies before 10,000 years ago is that it shows that radical eco-primitivism will never be a viable strategy for dealing with resource depletion. This is because advanced society will always reemerge eventually. We either figure out a way to be sustainable in a high technology fashion now or we try it again in 50,000 years.

[deleted]
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