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"I'm calling from Israeli intelligence"

bbc.co.uk

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Re: "I'm calling from Israeli intelligence"

#31

Post by Jochim »

orionsbelt wrote: post #25
asddubs wrote: post #7

Weird to see all these comments calling the army generous. They didn't have to bomb a civilian block at all.

You have no idea why they did it. Of course, neither do I. But I suspect they had good reason. Rockets also continue to be fired daily from civilian areas of Gaza into Israel. When the rockets stop — whether because Hamas surrenders, runs out of weapons, or otherwise — I’ll be more inclined to think a bombing is presumptively unnecessary.

Why do they deserve the benefit of the doubt?

It's undeniable that Israel lies brazenly and repeatedly about it's attacks.

See their murder of Shireen Abu Aqla last year for example.

The time footage leaked of one of their gunboats shelling four children playing on a beach still stands out for me.

Re: "I'm calling from Israeli intelligence"

#32

Post by mathieuh »

orionsbelt wrote: post #23
asddubs wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This logic only works if in your mind hamas = palestine

You can only say that America was the morally superior party in WW2 if in your mind Nazis = Germany. At that time, for purposes of the war, that was true, as the Nazis controlled Germany, just like Hamas now controls Gaza. That’s not to say innocent people aren’t sadly dying, but that’s the case in any war.

By the same token then you must agree that all Israelis are responsible for the horrific conditions that have prevailed in Gaza for decades, as well as the settler violence in the west bank, and apartheid.

Which is obviously not true. To say otherwise and treat Israelis or Jews as a monolithic block is one of the classic anti-semitic tropes. So why is it different when it's the Palestinians?

Re: "I'm calling from Israeli intelligence"

#33

Post by orwin »

orionsbelt wrote: post #23
asddubs wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This logic only works if in your mind hamas = palestine

You can only say that America was the morally superior party in WW2 if in your mind Nazis = Germany. At that time, for purposes of the war, that was true, as the Nazis controlled Germany, just like Hamas now controls Gaza. That’s not to say innocent people aren’t sadly dying, but that’s the case in any war.

What's remarkable are polls that show Gazaoui's support of Hamas. Each time it goes bellow 30%, somehow Israel kill some people (90% triggered by Hamas attacks, but last time it was march and protests, which muddy the narrative, especially when a nurse get sniped), and Hamas get over 60% support.

And what's funny is that Hamas is the richest in the area. Hamas received more money in the Gaza strip, directly from the Qatar and under the supervision of the Israeli army than all NGO working in both Palestines. They still managed to have less popular support than Fatah. With 30 millions a month.

Re: "I'm calling from Israeli intelligence"

#34

Post by asddubs »

orionsbelt wrote: post #23
asddubs wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This logic only works if in your mind hamas = palestine

You can only say that America was the morally superior party in WW2 if in your mind Nazis = Germany. At that time, for purposes of the war, that was true, as the Nazis controlled Germany, just like Hamas now controls Gaza. That’s not to say innocent people aren’t sadly dying, but that’s the case in any war.

well, the case has been made many times by historians that e.g. the english/american army went too far during the dresden bombings. So even when dealing with the literal nazis, things are not actually morally black and white in terms of unnecessary force of war against civillians. And palestine certainly isn't nazi germany, I think that's a bad faith comparison.

Re: "I'm calling from Israeli intelligence"

#35

Post by candiodari »

defrost wrote: post #16
throwawaysleep wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would absolutely expect my house to be bombed if my government was building bombs in the homes nearby. Heck in pretty much every other war, you could expect to be bombed in you worked in a factory building the bombs. On the other hand, I would not have voted for them in the first place. I also love my family, so when a military tells me to evacuate a city, I would be getting out of there no matter what.

The overwhelming majority of those being bombed were were not part of the 44.45% that voted for Hamas in the 2006 election. Certainly none of the ~ 3K children killed by the IDF in recent weeks voted.

There's this video from a woman reporter in Gaza taking a video, and casually a rocket flies out from behind her. Either from her building directly, and if not the launch site must have been very close by. She turns around, say "oh that happens all the time", and goes on, as if nothing happened. I can't find the video of the Palestinian reporter actually laughing it off, but there's these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_fP6mlNSK8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaqWqjb4w6s

Obviously if this happens, you leave the area and don't come back. And if you don't leave, you don't complain about a rocket coming back.

And of course, no explanation from anyone for the effects on the other side. Because everyone is saying "Israel stops most of these rockets and less people die there". And because of that, Israel should just tolerate this. People in Israel should just accept they live under constant rocket fire. THAT, is apparently not worth disturbing comfortable apartments of people in Gaza ...

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-01/ty-article/.p...

How anyone can even suggest Gazans have any kind of moral high ground when they're not doing anything about this, how they expect to go about their lives undisturbed while their apartments are being used to kill people ...

Re: "I'm calling from Israeli intelligence"

#36

Post by mdp2021 »

T1tt wrote: post #24
mdp2021 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is «politics» in terms of game theory, it is «news» in terms of occasion, and can claim some right to be here for its share of intellectual interest in the dynamics involved.

you know what would be a more interesting discussion? how russia and iran are using any army of bots and people behind the screen to sway public opinion; our actual democracy has been errroding for years and noone wants to talk about it.

> and noone wants to talk about it

Except we actually «talk about it» very frequently: we are well aware of the presence of informational warfare also after the articles so frequently published about it.

Re: "I'm calling from Israeli intelligence"

#37

Post by jiggawatts »

throwitagain27 wrote: post #29
jiggawatts wrote: post #18

One side is trying to minimise civilian causalities, and is failing to completely achieve that. The other side is trying to maximise civilian causalities, and is failing to completely achieve that. I'll let you choose which you think has the moral high ground. Use the up vote button if you think minimisation is good, and down vote if you think maximisation is good.

[flagged]

> One side also said nuke them.

Good point.

What happened was that one loud-mouth politician said that, and was immediately censured by their party.

Remember: one side is minimising, the other side is maximising civilian deaths.

Guess what would have happened if someone on the maximising side had suggested nuking the other side.

Would they be censured, or applauded?

Re: "I'm calling from Israeli intelligence"

#39

Post by dragonwriter »

jiggawatts wrote: post #37
throwitagain27 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> One side also said nuke them. Good point. What happened was that one loud-mouth politician said that, and was immediately censured by their party. Remember: one side is minimising, the other side is maximising civilian deaths. Guess what would have happened if someone on the maximising side had suggested nuking the other side. Would they be censured, or applauded?

> Remember: one side is minimising, the other side is maximising civilian deaths.

One side is tactically maximizing civilian deaths in its manner of immediate combat, the other side is strategically maximizing civilian deaths, by its long-term management of the broader conflict (longer, in fact, that the immediate opposing party has existed; in fact, the strategically maximizing party was instrumental in bringing its immediate opposing party into existence as part of the strategy of maximizing long-term civilian harm and preventing peace.)

Re: "I'm calling from Israeli intelligence"

#40

Post by hackeraccount »

jiggawatts wrote: post #18

One side is trying to minimise civilian causalities, and is failing to completely achieve that. The other side is trying to maximise civilian causalities, and is failing to completely achieve that. I'll let you choose which you think has the moral high ground. Use the up vote button if you think minimisation is good, and down vote if you think maximisation is good.

Got my upvote.

I'd describe it as Hamas trying to get around the IDF so they can kill or kidnap old people, women and children. The IDF is trying to get around old people, women and children so the they can kill Hamas.

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