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Why only 1% of the Snowden Archive will ever be published

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Re: Why only 1% of the Snowden Archive will ever be published

#32
post #8

Journalistic integrity balancing with the national security interests of the most powerful nation on the planet is complicated. I am comfortable trusting the NYT to do their job. I hope that eventually all the technical papers eventually are available out of nerdy curiosity, but I’d prefer that be through declassification and not espionage.

The Atlantic and Pacific oceans and the US nuclear triad mean that there is nothing in those documents that could pose any significant threat to US national security.

The NSA might in fact be occasionally helping to stop relatively small-scale attacks. However, as Prigozhin's march on Moscow in Russia and the 10/7 attacks in Israel show, even running an authoritarian surveillance state or a heavily militarized state with top-notch intelligence services can only do so much to prevent attacks. I think that adding more and more surveillance has diminishing returns in preventing attacks, meanwhile its existence is a threat to free society both directly, in that it could theoretically be used against political dissidents, and indirectly, in that it encourages a culture of self-censorship that is antithetical to political freedom.

If no amount of risk is acceptable, then any amount of surveillance is justified. To have a free society some level of risk must be accepted.

Re: Why only 1% of the Snowden Archive will ever be published

#33
post #21
post #6

> Why was only 1% of the documents published, in the end? “The documents are not like the WikiLeaks ones from the US state department, which were written by diplomats and, for the most part, easily understandable,” said Ewen MacAskill. “The Snowden files are largely technical, with lots of codewords and jargon that is hard to decipher. There are pages and pages of that which the public would not be interested in. The…

> a capable public can make this determination The public is not capable, either technically nor emotionally nor politically.

True the average person can't do that.

However there are many organisations who can analyze different aspects from different perspectives and pull out consumable information from it.

By having the raw material available this then can be cross-ckecked. If it's kept secret you need complete trust.

Re: Why only 1% of the Snowden Archive will ever be published

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I just want to be clarify, is your point that the MRNA vaccines do not work, but ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine do? I don't have a response, I just want to make sure I understand precisely what your statement meant.

I think they probably agree with saulpw and referencing the COVID stuff is a funny way to make that point.

Re: Why only 1% of the Snowden Archive will ever be published

#35
post #21
post #6

> Why was only 1% of the documents published, in the end? “The documents are not like the WikiLeaks ones from the US state department, which were written by diplomats and, for the most part, easily understandable,” said Ewen MacAskill. “The Snowden files are largely technical, with lots of codewords and jargon that is hard to decipher. There are pages and pages of that which the public would not be interested in. The…

> a capable public can make this determination The public is not capable, either technically nor emotionally nor politically.

We are all the public. Including the people who wrote these documents originally.

It can’t be that hard.

Re: Why only 1% of the Snowden Archive will ever be published

#36
post #8

Journalistic integrity balancing with the national security interests of the most powerful nation on the planet is complicated. I am comfortable trusting the NYT to do their job. I hope that eventually all the technical papers eventually are available out of nerdy curiosity, but I’d prefer that be through declassification and not espionage.

The NYT has a long history of being pro-war. People who dislike US using military force to enforce global hegemony would probably disagree with many of the editorial choices they are making behind closed doors.

Re: Why only 1% of the Snowden Archive will ever be published

#37

Snowden made a mistake in not dumping the whole archive to Wikileaks as was done with the US State Department cables and the CIA's Vault 7 files. I think there's probably a lot more in those files that's of great embarrassment not just to the NSA and the US government in general (such as proof that it was conducting an illegal warrantless mass surveillance program in violation of US law) - but also to their collabora…

> which is very hard to justify on national security grounds

I think the people doing this have a completely different notion of national security than the general public, one that includes a supposed right to know about surprises in general and big events in general, not just about bad guys plotting to attack you. For example, they might believe that details of economic activity, prices, religious movements, relationships among foreign politicians, epidemics, boycott and antiboycott campaigns, etc., are matters of national security in the sense that they could eventually develop into things that would affect a society negatively, or that could tend to increase or decrease the power of a state.

In maintaining the idea of privacy, we have to also maintain that others have to accept surprises and uncertainty. I don't know my neighbors' religious views, I don't know what oatmilk will cost next week at the supermarket, I didn't know when my former coworkers started trying to organize a union, I don't know if anyone has a crush on me. But all that information exists somewhere in computer systems. I accept that I have no right to it, but it seems incredibly hard to get governments to think the same way.

When Glenn Greenwald first talked about how spying on Petrobras wasn't a matter of U.S. national security, I thought that was obviously right. Petrobras isn't going to attack the U.S., it doesn't have any means of attacking the U.S., and it doesn't have any obligation to sell or not sell oil to the U.S. or any other country at any particular price. But now I think that it's not just like "the NSA must plan to help the Texas oil industry" or "the NSA must plan to help the Saudi oil industry" or something; it's more like "they don't accept that they should have to contend with surprises and uncertainty".

To be clear, I think that spying on Petrobras is wrong and I wish that Petrobras had a remedy for it. And I think disclosing that it happens is right, but it doesn't seem to have led to the kind of discussion or debate that Greenwald seemed to hope for.

Edit: The comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38181265 had a more concise take on this point.

> If no amount of risk is acceptable, then any amount of surveillance is justified. To have a free society some level of risk must be accepted.

(But in this context we're not just talking about risks of violent attacks, but really risks of anything disruptive.)

Edit 2: The U.S. in particular is powerful enough to enforce economic sanctions which are themselves justified on national security grounds, so then there's also the sanctions enforcement part like figuring out whether Petrobras is working with the Iranian oil industry or whatever. Most countries probably wouldn't even expect to be able to do anything about that, although they might want to exert diplomatic pressure like "please stop trading with our enemy, from whom we concretely fear a physical attack".

Re: Why only 1% of the Snowden Archive will ever be published

#38
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a capable public can make this determination The public is not capable, either technically nor emotionally nor politically.

[flagged]

Perfect example of the point you were replying to.

Re: Why only 1% of the Snowden Archive will ever be published

#39
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a capable public can make this determination The public is not capable, either technically nor emotionally nor politically.

[flagged]

>Turns out hcq, ivm worked and the mrna shots - not so much.

Hydroxychloroquine and Ivermectin have not shown to be anywhere near the efficiency of MRNA vaccines, and the fact that they continue to muddy the waters cast a large doubt on whether the general public is capable of independent inquiry.

Re: Why only 1% of the Snowden Archive will ever be published

#40
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately the name is already taken by my online encyclopedia on incontinence.

So, it mostly covers congressional leaks?

Also called the online encyclopedia of incompetence
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