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It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft

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Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft

#31
post #11

It shouldn't matter if (and it is a big if) management is actually managing employees deliverable outputs. But if you have management that isn't capable of measuring and managing what the employees deliver, then they revert to just managing the employees time. The recent push for return to office seems to indicate that many places are not capable of managing what their workers actually produce.

> The recent push for return to office seems to indicate that many places are not capable of managing what their workers actually produce. It's not that they can't, it's that the people in power to make this change would themselves be obsoleted if they do so. Many higher-level positions derive their perceived usefulness and prestige by the number of reports under them and the amount of busywork produced even if said…

> It's not that they can't

Maybe, but I'd wager you are over estimating the actual management capabilities of many of those people.

Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minimum wage is an arbitrary construct that may have been reasonable when it was initially introduced but due to dysfunctional politics/corruption (or "lobbying") hasn't been updated to reflect the cost of living especially with regards to property prices, so making minimum wage isn't a high bar. > where things like housing construction, which require labor to exist That's why I mentioned land and not only housing. I…

> Minimum wage is an arbitrary construct that may have been reasonable when it was initially introduced but due to dysfunctional politics/corruption (or "lobbying") hasn't been updated to reflect the cost of living especially with regards to property prices, so making minimum wage isn't a high bar. Irrelevant. The point is that you could set the minimum wage to zero and people would still make wages higher than that…

I disagree that the limiting factor is construction. The limiting factor is that there are significant entrenched interests based on the scarcity of property which influence any eventual laws/regulations or incentives to build more property.

> You can build an arbitrarily large amount of shelter

You can, but it isn't done, because of see above. For a lot of people/businesses in power to actually change things, it's often more profitable to defend the status-quo than make the change. It's a "tragedy of the commons" problem - it would end up better for everyone if the change were to be made, but only if it's done collectively - otherwise any individual player would be at a disadvantage.

But my original argument wasn't even about third-party constructed shelter. Even if let's say you wanted land just to put a tent somewhere and call that your home, well you can't without buying said land first, which is often priced disproportionately compared to wages (and there's pressure to keep it that way, where either wages/earning potential are pushed down, or land will just raise in price to match).

Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Prison. If people start using prison as this "one weird trick they don't want you to know" to not pay rent, this problem will be solved pretty quickly too (if it isn't already, as the other commenter suggests forced prison labor is a thing in some places).

You only addressed the lighthearted part of my response. I'd be much more interested in your reaction to my main point - you appear to be defining slavery as having to care for yourself. Surely you do not believe that you are owed a life of leisure do you?

> Surely you do not believe that you are owed a life of leisure do you?

I believe shelter and basic necessities should be a human right. So many problems would be solved/improved if people didn't have to spend half (or more, for the lower classes) of their earnings on perpetually renting.

Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft

#34
post #2

"Former" is the key. A lot of people will say things like that when they're no (longer?) in position to actually make a difference - it's a safe way to garner sympathy and attention without actually making the decision and be responsible for its consequences. I can guarantee you he wouldn't have the same opinion if he was still in his position and had political power to be able to actually allow this. People working…

Exactly. Ive also noticed a lot of former faang VPs now trying to become influencers on LinkedIn by sharing the "internals" of big co promotion and other processes. Amazing they would never talk about this while in the role but suddenly they are now ultra generous! Don't get me wrong. The revealings are actually pretty spot on but timing is very dubious!

Exactly. HR employees are the most untrustworthy folks in any organization, short of the executives that direct them.

Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft

#35
post #2

"Former" is the key. A lot of people will say things like that when they're no (longer?) in position to actually make a difference - it's a safe way to garner sympathy and attention without actually making the decision and be responsible for its consequences. I can guarantee you he wouldn't have the same opinion if he was still in his position and had political power to be able to actually allow this. People working…

Exactly. Ive also noticed a lot of former faang VPs now trying to become influencers on LinkedIn by sharing the "internals" of big co promotion and other processes. Amazing they would never talk about this while in the role but suddenly they are now ultra generous! Don't get me wrong. The revealings are actually pretty spot on but timing is very dubious!

I don't think cynicism explains why an exec would not share the "internals" of the organization they are currently in. They are in a position of trust which has the expectation of not sharing said "internals". Betraying that trust would, rightfully, cause them to be sanctioned. Once they are out of the position, they have the option to divulge or not so some choose to do so.

Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft

#36
post #4
post #2

"Former" is the key. A lot of people will say things like that when they're no (longer?) in position to actually make a difference - it's a safe way to garner sympathy and attention without actually making the decision and be responsible for its consequences. I can guarantee you he wouldn't have the same opinion if he was still in his position and had political power to be able to actually allow this. People working…

Are you really calling engineers who earn 300k and more at those companies “slaves”?

Yes, everyone who needs to work for a living is a wage slave.

Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft

#37
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the master/slave relationship isn't the best metaphor for voluntary employment...

It's not voluntary unless/until you can find me a place where housing/land is free. Sure, the slavery is "distributed" across multiple actors such as landlords & profit off the whole concept of property as an asset, but ultimately the net result is the same - you have to work just to be afforded shelter. The end result is that you work or you die (out of exposure, medical bills, etc). Not much different from the slav…

In slavery, the enslaved is property. Their spouse and children can be sold off, you can be used as a breeder of more slaves, you eat what you can forage or what is handed to you, if you don't work harder you and your family are physically beaten. Some slaves had their achilles tendon's ruptured so they couldn't run but still could work in fields. That is just getting started and I'm not an expert in the matter (just took a few history classes).

So.. there are some really stark differences. "Wage slavery" does have similarities to an extent, but it is still a world apart.

Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft

#38
20 years ago I worked 3 jobs simultaneously. During the day I managed an infrastructure engineering team and at night I worked as 3rd shift lead in a NOC. During downtime in the NOC, there was plenty of it, I worked on freelance technical writing jobs. I think everyone in that NOC worked a day job. People would occasionally be found out and fired. I only maintained that pace for a couple of years before deciding I'd like to have a social life and sleep a full 8 hours again.

I started working fully remote in 2018 and considered jumping on the multiple job train again but decided against it. I retired a few months ago, at 53, and now part-time manage a horse farm which is more work than 3 simultaneous tech jobs was.

Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Minimum wage is an arbitrary construct that may have been reasonable when it was initially introduced but due to dysfunctional politics/corruption (or "lobbying") hasn't been updated to reflect the cost of living especially with regards to property prices, so making minimum wage isn't a high bar. Irrelevant. The point is that you could set the minimum wage to zero and people would still make wages higher than that…

I disagree that the limiting factor is construction. The limiting factor is that there are significant entrenched interests based on the scarcity of property which influence any eventual laws/regulations or incentives to build more property. > You can build an arbitrarily large amount of shelter You can, but it isn't done, because of see above. For a lot of people/businesses in power to actually change things, it's o…

> I disagree that the limiting factor is construction. The limiting factor is that there are significant entrenched interests based on the scarcity of property which influence any eventual laws/regulations or incentives to build more property.

Now you're making a completely different argument: Not that the problem is that you have to work in order to buy housing, but that the cost of housing is too high because of artificial restrictions on housing construction.

Which is totally true but is something else entirely -- if housing cost 10% of what it does now, it still wouldn't be free.

> It's a "tragedy of the commons" problem - it would end up better for everyone if the change were to be made, but only if it's done collectively - otherwise any individual player would be at a disadvantage.

It's quite the opposite really. It would be better for anyone individually to build more housing on their land because they would make more money than the construction costs, so in order to prevent that they pass laws prohibiting nearly anybody from doing that.

These laws persist because of regulatory dysfunction. People benefit if the property they own is worth more and the property they might want to buy is worth less -- and any given person doesn't own most property, so the general advantage is to make housing cost less everywhere. But the laws that prevent it are instituted at the local level, in places zoned for single family homes that are predominantly owner-occupied, so the local voters are local homeowners who want local housing prices to go up rather than down. Meanwhile they don't get a vote in what the zoning is somewhere they might want to move to, so the rules make prices go up.

This is a real problem that could be solved by empowering individual property owners to build what they want on their own property, but what does that have anything to do with employers who are largely ambivalent to this? If anything employers should prefer housing costs to be lower so they can attract talent to their locality through a lower cost of living, and pay less in rent themselves.

> Even if let's say you wanted land just to put a tent somewhere and call that your home, well you can't without buying said land first

What are you proposing to do instead? You can't feasibly create more land, and what people actually want the land for is to have shelter. You can create more shelter, but that requires labor. It's never going to be free -- one way or another somebody has to build it. Somebody would even have to make the tent.

We could certainly make it cost less by removing zoning restrictions but less is not free.

Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft

#40
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the master/slave relationship isn't the best metaphor for voluntary employment...

It's not voluntary unless/until you can find me a place where housing/land is free. Sure, the slavery is "distributed" across multiple actors such as landlords & profit off the whole concept of property as an asset, but ultimately the net result is the same - you have to work just to be afforded shelter. The end result is that you work or you die (out of exposure, medical bills, etc). Not much different from the slav…

Plantations aren't free either. Slaves need to be managed else they will all leave and the owners starve (or worse).

I guess slaves, slave owners, and software engineers are all pretty much the same when you think about it.

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