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GM's Cruise alleged to rely on human operators to achieve "autonomous" driving

nytimes.com

31–40 of 190 posts

Re: GM's Cruise alleged to rely on human operators to achieve "autonomous" driving

#31
I get a feeling Cruise is going to get sold off within the next 5 yrs. Waymo will likely be the leading provider for “autonomous vehicle” software/hardware.

Government Motors can only sustain such a loss on their books for a short time. This is probably why Vogt has been pushing so hard for market dominance.

Re: GM's Cruise alleged to rely on human operators to achieve "autonomous" driving

#32
post #21

This is the same whacky theory I've been spreading about Tesla self-driving for a year or so. "Imagine Tesla self-driving is like some dude driving your car via videogame on the other side of the world." Most people are pretty sure my theory is wrong. I have absolutely no evidence this is true, it's just some crazy idea that popped into my head one day.

Like some sort of fucked up Ender's Game situation.

Re: GM's Cruise alleged to rely on human operators to achieve "autonomous" driving

#33

> Two months ago, Kyle Vogt, the chief executive of Cruise, choked up as he recounted how a driver had killed a 4-year-old girl in a stroller at a San Francisco intersection. “It barely made the news,” he said, pausing to collect himself. “Sorry. I get emotional.” ... > Cruise’s board has hired the law firm Quinn Emanuel to investigate the company’s response to the incident, including its interactions with regulators…

Cruise is trying to save itself from getting shut down by GM. I guess it would look slightly better for optics if the GM board hired them instead of Cruise’s board. But it’s the same money, and it’s GM’s decision at the end.

Re: GM's Cruise alleged to rely on human operators to achieve "autonomous" driving

#34

Cruise is leveraging human-in-the-loop to expand faster than they otherwise would, with the hope that they will solve autonomy later to bring this down. I don't think this is a viable strategy though given the enormous costs and challenges involved. There doesn't exist a short-term timeline where Cruise makes money, and the window is rapidly closing. They needed to expand to show big revenues, even if they had to thr…

GM actually spun off Cruise in 2018. Honda now has shares in Cruise. SoftBank used to own some as well, but GM bought out their share last year

Re: GM's Cruise alleged to rely on human operators to achieve "autonomous" driving

#36

> Two months ago, Kyle Vogt, the chief executive of Cruise, choked up as he recounted how a driver had killed a 4-year-old girl in a stroller at a San Francisco intersection. “It barely made the news,” he said, pausing to collect himself. “Sorry. I get emotional.” ... > Cruise’s board has hired the law firm Quinn Emanuel to investigate the company’s response to the incident, including its interactions with regulators…

Hmm? I saw it exactly the opposite. A lot of people in the autonomous driving industry are driven by exactly what Vogt describes (little girl in the stroller etc.). See also Chris Urmson of Waymo fame's TED talk, he talks about a similar motivation[1].

Its a fallacy everyone conveniently ignores. The woman the Cruise car ran over was actually first hit by a human driver who is still at-large, not a peep about him. The press kinda just accepts this as the "cost of doing business".

The way I see it, Vogt sincerely believes autonomous cars will make things safer from the #2 killer of Children under 19 (outside of guns) by a wide margin [2] and therefore accelerated the rollout past what was safe. I see no evidence otherwise.

[1] https://www.ted.com/talks/chris_urmson_how_a_driverless_car_...

[2] https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc2201761

Re: GM's Cruise alleged to rely on human operators to achieve "autonomous" driving

#37

Cruise is leveraging human-in-the-loop to expand faster than they otherwise would, with the hope that they will solve autonomy later to bring this down. I don't think this is a viable strategy though given the enormous costs and challenges involved. There doesn't exist a short-term timeline where Cruise makes money, and the window is rapidly closing. They needed to expand to show big revenues, even if they had to thr…

So Waymo/Google winning here in your opinion?

Re: GM's Cruise alleged to rely on human operators to achieve "autonomous" driving

#38

Having to be remotely operated every 2.5 to 5 miles seem to defeat most of the economics of self driving cars. Back of the napkin math, cars drive at an average of 18mph in cities, so every 10-20min. Let’s assume it takes over for 1min, and that you need remote drivers not too far for ping purposes, so at the same hourly rate. To guarantee you’ll be able to take over all demands immediately, due to the birthday parad…

Just FYI, Most autonomous car companies have backup drivers.

Its the disengagement rate that drives the number of operators you need per driver and therefore the economics. Theoretically, this rate should be improving steadily at all these companies.

Cruise seems to have a bad disengagement rate right now (Waymo's should be much better already. Curious by how much though.

Re: GM's Cruise alleged to rely on human operators to achieve "autonomous" driving

#39
post #7

It's not an allegation. It's the same as using human feedback for tuning large language models. There are no autonomous cars currently regardless of what is written on the marketing brochures. In various "emergency" situations the cars phone home and ask a human operator to take over the controls.

> It's the same as using human feedback for tuning large language models It isn’t remotely the same. This would be like if human operators typed some of chatGPTs answers

OK, you must know more than I do about how human feedback is used for tuning large language models.

Re: GM's Cruise alleged to rely on human operators to achieve "autonomous" driving

#40
> Company insiders are putting the blame for what went wrong on a tech industry culture — led by the 38-year-old Mr. Vogt — that put a priority on the speed of the program over safety. [...] He named Louise Zhang, vice president of safety, as the company’s interim chief safety officer [...]

I hope Chief Safety Officer isn't just a sacrificial lamb job, like CISO tends to be.

Is the "interim" part hinting at insufficient faith, and maybe future blame will be put on how the VP Safety performed previously (discovered after the non-interim person is hired)?

> [...] and said she would report directly to him.

Is the CSO nominally responsible for safety?

Does the CSO have any leverage to push back when their recommendations aren't taken, other than resigning?

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