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Software that supports your body should always respect your freedom

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Re: Software that supports your body should always respect your freedom

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So like suicide, drugs and other and other cases where we are denied dominion over ourselves for our own good? IE. Your life and body are not yours, they belong to society and you only get limited access.

Society doesn't have to give you the rope to hang yourself.

I disagree or rather yes, it does have the responsibility to provide you a rope. It is up to you whether you hang yourself or not.

Re: Software that supports your body should always respect your freedom

#32
A lot of this does make sense, and I think there's still ought to be more in the messaging. The medical data as well needs to be analogously free, or rather, wholly private to the individual. No organization should be the arbiters of our medical information.

But the sad news is, we carry around with us portable surveillance circlets which have the ability to access our medical conditions. We give it information voluntarily, and through occasional advertorials, this practice is becoming more normalized and accepted. I'm not convinced that the convenience outweighs the trouble this is going to bring.

Re: Software that supports your body should always respect your freedom

#33
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quality of life critical software should be ensured by FDA certification. Homebrew modifications of that software, even in the name of “freedom”, risks the patient’s life and health and should be illegal if uncertified.

> Homebrew modifications of that software, even in the name of “freedom”, risks the patient’s life and health and should be illegal if uncertified. The official modifications of that software — in the name of "profit" — are currently risking the patient’s life and health, and therefore should also be illegal by your logic. Surely you must also support effective (ie harsh/deterrent) prosecution and punishment for thes…

>>>should be illegal if uncertified.

I think this is the key part of the comment - yes, uncertified changes by anyone could feasibly be illegal. The FDA or similar should probably do code reviews.

Re: Software that supports your body should always respect your freedom

#34
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Homebrew modifications of that software, even in the name of “freedom”, risks the patient’s life and health and should be illegal if uncertified. The official modifications of that software — in the name of "profit" — are currently risking the patient’s life and health, and therefore should also be illegal by your logic. Surely you must also support effective (ie harsh/deterrent) prosecution and punishment for thes…

>>>should be illegal if uncertified. I think this is the key part of the comment - yes, uncertified changes by anyone could feasibly be illegal. The FDA or similar should probably do code reviews.

Looking at corner cases for this:

What if you fix a bug in your own pacemaker? Would it be ok to:

a) Fine you?

b) Jail you?

c) Force you to revert the change? (plausibly leading to death in an extreme case)

[edit: I do agree that there's a chance that making a 'fix' to your own pacemaker might also make it worse. In which case, who do we trust more? The person on the ground with a stake in the matter (however misinformed), or $government_official with no stake in the matter (however well informed).

I think it's tricky! ]

Re: Software that supports your body should always respect your freedom

#35
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quality of life critical software should be ensured by FDA certification. Homebrew modifications of that software, even in the name of “freedom”, risks the patient’s life and health and should be illegal if uncertified.

In EU (and probably elsewhere), there are strict rules for the stability of power wheelchair. One such rule is "On a incline of x% (x chosen by the manufacturer), pushing for max speed from stop should not lift the front wheels" To achieve that, the max acceleration must be quite low (software controlled), and the whole experience is sluggish, like trying to steer a car by pulling on rubber bands attached to the whee…

I suppose we all have, or should have, the right to try stupid things. Sometimes experience and competence are more important than 100% safety. Your comment made me realize how limiting it would be to be physically incapable of taking even the smallest risk.

Re: Software that supports your body should always respect your freedom

#36
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quality of life critical software should be ensured by FDA certification. Homebrew modifications of that software, even in the name of “freedom”, risks the patient’s life and health and should be illegal if uncertified.

> Homebrew modifications of that software, even in the name of “freedom”, risks the patient’s life and health and should be illegal if uncertified. The official modifications of that software — in the name of "profit" — are currently risking the patient’s life and health, and therefore should also be illegal by your logic. Surely you must also support effective (ie harsh/deterrent) prosecution and punishment for thes…

This is a huge straw man/whataboutism that contributes nothing to the discussion.

Yes, bad software modifications are bad and should be punished wherever they arise.

Homebrew modifications make it way easier for bad stuff to happen, and make it harder to punish.

Re: Software that supports your body should always respect your freedom

#37
post #10
post #4

Great article. Real life horror stories of life-critical software gore, with some good news at the end. It should be illegal to sell software that someones life depends upon without giving the user the right to inspect and modify the code.

Quality of life critical software should be ensured by FDA certification. Homebrew modifications of that software, even in the name of “freedom”, risks the patient’s life and health and should be illegal if uncertified.

Surely the patient should have the right to risk their own life?

Re: Software that supports your body should always respect your freedom

#38
100% agree for "read only" software, like scanning, diagnostics, etc.

Control software is much more involved topic, let me illustrate it with a scenario: one family member is non-techy but has an insulin pump, another family member is techy and likes to hack around, they made a change to the insulin pump software to "improve it", but by accident the change triggered insulin overdose at night during sleep and family member died. We have rules and regulations not just to have rules and regulations, we have rules and regulations because they are written in blood.

While advocating for ability to freely modifying any life dependant control software is a noble goal, in my opinion it's the wrong end to approach it, instead it would be more constructive if we as computer science industry figure out ways how to make software such as we don't kill people, how to "certify" it in self service fashion (validation passed == no-one will die), etc, it's no trivial and it feels this particular part of our industry is not as developed/main stream as compared to something like civil engineering. If we have easy ways to ensure that modifying software will not lead to death then it will be easier to change the legislation to enforce this freedom.

Re: Software that supports your body should always respect your freedom

#39
post #23
post #4

Great article. Real life horror stories of life-critical software gore, with some good news at the end. It should be illegal to sell software that someones life depends upon without giving the user the right to inspect and modify the code.

I have an ICD (implanted cardioverter-defibrillator) to save my life if my heart stops. I was also given a proprietary box that sits at home, reads data from it and sends it to my cardiologist over a cellular network, on demand. As part of periodic remote checkups I'm supposed to sit next to it, press the button, which causes it to read data and send any abnormal heart rhythms it detected (via cellular network), whet…

That's appalling and should be illegal.

I wish more programmers would refuse to contribute to this kind of exploitation.

Re: Software that supports your body should always respect your freedom

#40
post #23
post #4

Great article. Real life horror stories of life-critical software gore, with some good news at the end. It should be illegal to sell software that someones life depends upon without giving the user the right to inspect and modify the code.

I have an ICD (implanted cardioverter-defibrillator) to save my life if my heart stops. I was also given a proprietary box that sits at home, reads data from it and sends it to my cardiologist over a cellular network, on demand. As part of periodic remote checkups I'm supposed to sit next to it, press the button, which causes it to read data and send any abnormal heart rhythms it detected (via cellular network), whet…

This is giving me feelings similar to that movie repo men where you had to rent life saving organs and they could come repossess them at any time.
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