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Nuclear Conversion for Starship

toughsf.blogspot.com

31–40 of 155 posts

Re: Nuclear Conversion for Starship

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Name me a country willing to give Elon Musk control of fissile material, however indirect.

Starship and the booster already collectively carry 70 kiloton-tnt-equivalent masses of liquid methane and oxygen. As a weapon of mass destruction, it's hard to beat relativistic impact.

That's like saying they carry 4400 tons of mass-energy, which could destroy the planet.

Re: Nuclear Conversion for Starship

#32
The design is not advanced enough, they should be thinking of

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fission-fragment_rocket

So here is my science fiction theory: fusion will never be possible, but fission already is. So in the galactic civilization, rare uranium is the most valuable resource since it enables interstellar travel. Uranium is only produced in the collisions of neutron stars, so we are lucky to have any.

We should not squander our uranium for power generation when we can use solar for that. It's like not using oil or gasoline for heating.. we need it for transportation.

Re: Nuclear Conversion for Starship

#33

Aren't SpaceX launch explosions big enough already?

I don't know why you're downvoted. I think it's a legitimate question. When I was in high school I asked " Why don't we just shoot our nuclear waste into the sun? ". As an adult, Kerbal Space Program has taught me that it's incredibly difficult to lose the orbital velocity and get things into the Sun! But the answer my teachers told me was "Well, even if rockets have a 99.5% success rate and a 0.5% failure rate, and…

> Nuclear rockets don't have the thrust ratio necessary for take off, so presumably they'd be assembled and used in space.

Or just used as an upper stage! See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_C-5N, for instance, and a bunch of even more ridiculous Soviet designs.

Amazingly, this project (nuclear third stage for Saturn V) was actually under serious development. This to be used on a rocket stack which had had two major incidents in 13 launches; it really was a very different safety culture back then.

Re: Nuclear Conversion for Starship

#34

I only skimmed the article; but as I understood it the liquid hydrogen here is being used strictly as ejecta. It is not being combusted, the way that it is used in the space shuttle boosters. If that is the case, liquid hydrogen seems like an awful substance -- hard to produce and transport, hard to store and the mass required to support keeping it is not insubstantialy, all for a mass density of ~70g/L. Why not just…

Water is annoying: when you heat it, some of the energy goes into dissociating it rather than accelerating it. In the end you apparently get pretty bad performance out of it.

In deep space you don't really care about the volume of your fuel tank, so then it does make sense to use something light like hydrogen.

Re: Nuclear Conversion for Starship

#35

I only skimmed the article; but as I understood it the liquid hydrogen here is being used strictly as ejecta. It is not being combusted, the way that it is used in the space shuttle boosters. If that is the case, liquid hydrogen seems like an awful substance -- hard to produce and transport, hard to store and the mass required to support keeping it is not insubstantialy, all for a mass density of ~70g/L. Why not just…

The article covers this. Virtually all nuclear engine proposals have used H2 as propellant because of the specific impulse, but this article mentions methane as an alternative. Of course, Starship today uses methane and Elon plans to create methane on mars.

> Most significant for our purposes is methane as propellant. It is six times denser than liquid hydrogen, can be stored at 100K, which is compatible with liquid oxygen, and it can be produced using water and carbon dioxide. At high temperatures, it breaks down into hydrogen and carbon, turning it from a 16 g/mol molecule into a 3.25 g/mol plasma. That is how it achieves a specific impulse only mildly lower than what is achievable using liquid hydrogen. Zubrin lists its specific impulse as

>Previous calculations using hydrogen propellant revealed how volume-limited the Starship design was. There was no room for the bulky liquid hydrogen, and getting to orbit meant sacrificing the payload mass and volume advantages that the Starship is built around.

>These could be solved by using denser liquid methane as propellant for the nuclear propulsion system. The Isp will be lower, but the mass ratios become so much better that more deltaV is available overall.

Re: Nuclear Conversion for Starship

#36
post #27

I only skimmed the article; but as I understood it the liquid hydrogen here is being used strictly as ejecta. It is not being combusted, the way that it is used in the space shuttle boosters. If that is the case, liquid hydrogen seems like an awful substance -- hard to produce and transport, hard to store and the mass required to support keeping it is not insubstantialy, all for a mass density of ~70g/L. Why not just…

For specific impulse. When you have unlimited power, you want the lightest possible molecular mass exhaust for the best total delta V.

I need to play Kerbel Space Program. I have absolutely no intuition about this sort of thing. Some intuition around orbital mechanics from my physics days but rocketry is a bit of a mystery.

Re: Nuclear Conversion for Starship

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Niger Central African Republic Cambodia Bolivia Palau Laos There are in fact a lot of countries that would be thrilled to give Elon fissile material in exchange for investment.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say Niger, CAR, Palau, etc don't have access to highly enriched uranium.

Who says it has to be highly enriched to start?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_uranium_r...

Re: Nuclear Conversion for Starship

#38
post #9

AFAIK, the only nuclear rocket that makes sense is landing a reactor on an icy comet and using it to shoot super heated steam wherever you want thrust. #seveneves

The Project Orion design (shoot hundreds of fission bombs out the back and ride the shock wave on a reaction plate) is surprisingly practical, and probably our only way to get humans past Mars. It's just kind of terrifying.

Re: Nuclear Conversion for Starship

#39

Aren't SpaceX launch explosions big enough already?

I don't know why you're downvoted. I think it's a legitimate question. When I was in high school I asked " Why don't we just shoot our nuclear waste into the sun? ". As an adult, Kerbal Space Program has taught me that it's incredibly difficult to lose the orbital velocity and get things into the Sun! But the answer my teachers told me was "Well, even if rockets have a 99.5% success rate and a 0.5% failure rate, and…

This article addresses that. They claim that, like you said, they are only used at very high altitude or in space, and the raw materials, before ignition are not dangerous. They say that the low enrichment uranium is even safe to touch with your bare hands.

Re: Nuclear Conversion for Starship

#40

Aren't SpaceX launch explosions big enough already?

I don't know why you're downvoted. I think it's a legitimate question. When I was in high school I asked " Why don't we just shoot our nuclear waste into the sun? ". As an adult, Kerbal Space Program has taught me that it's incredibly difficult to lose the orbital velocity and get things into the Sun! But the answer my teachers told me was "Well, even if rockets have a 99.5% success rate and a 0.5% failure rate, and…

We can store the fuel pellets in a crash can during transit. That way if the rocket blows up nothing hot gets dispersed.

But even without a crash can, it's of less concern to public health than the radioisotopes in coal.

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