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Ask HN: How to survive indefinite DDoS attack?

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Re: Ask HN: How to survive indefinite DDoS attack?

#31
post #15
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate that this is the right answer. I hate that I use it too. I hate that I don't have time/cash to explore alternatives.

because alternatives usually cost several thousands $/months.. what has the internet become? Why not create blacklists (even on a timed basis) with the IPs to block at BGP level? and these blacklists managed by bodies, - okay they are bodies..., but at least they can be open foundations to which it is not mandatory to join (as in the case of cloudflare)- available to BGP backbones and routed on a network, castrate th…

That basically exists, look at BGP blackholes. Fairly well supported, and it works at what it does, but it can be too blunt of a tool, because it blackholes by destination, not by source.

Border routers are wired to make forwarding decisions based on destination addresses, and not source addresses, so options are limited. Even if you could blackhole by source/dest pair, the distributed nature of DDoS means thousands of sources, which means thousands of rules/routes, which isn't ideal. Some providers might have some capacity to do smarter filters, but it's limited and not very standardized.

If you're dealing with volumetric DDoS, the simple reality is you need big pipes if you want to accept the traffic. Otherwise, cycle IPs and hope legit traffic finds new IPs faster than abusers do. Run your backend communication over a separate network or at least totally separate IP space, so at least you're not losing management capability while under attack.

DDoS mitigation should be a complimentary business with CDN, becuase the traffic flows are opposite of usual, and CDNs generally connect with symetric connections, so what were they going to do with the inbound bandwidth anyway? But that doesn't mean all CDNs run that line of business.

Re: Ask HN: How to survive indefinite DDoS attack?

#32
post #20
post #3

Pay couple of $ for Cloudflare be done with it. https://www.cloudflare.com/ddos/ Don't forget to have a fresh IP before doing the move so that your origin is unknown.

ever since cloudflare went political and started kicking off customers for their opinions, i never touched that service and never will. and i have a very long memory. but alternatives are welcome.

I’m curious which customers you had in mind here. Is it KF?

Re: Ask HN: How to survive indefinite DDoS attack?

#33
I think about this sometimes. Shouldn't there be a way for your app server to report to your DoS protection service which requests are abusive and which are legit? Like a fail2ban but distributed: if someone connects and sends invalid credentials, block them at the ISP or proxy level, not on your host's firewall.

It's possible that this doesn't exist for good reasons though, I am not sure how the numbers work out in terms of relative capacity.

Re: Ask HN: How to survive indefinite DDoS attack?

#34
post #29
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because alternatives usually cost several thousands $/months.. what has the internet become? Why not create blacklists (even on a timed basis) with the IPs to block at BGP level? and these blacklists managed by bodies, - okay they are bodies..., but at least they can be open foundations to which it is not mandatory to join (as in the case of cloudflare)- available to BGP backbones and routed on a network, castrate th…

So if someone becomes part of the bonnet, they are denied all access to the internet

Isn't that good though? Unblock them when they fix their host.

Re: Ask HN: How to survive indefinite DDoS attack?

#35
post #29
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because alternatives usually cost several thousands $/months.. what has the internet become? Why not create blacklists (even on a timed basis) with the IPs to block at BGP level? and these blacklists managed by bodies, - okay they are bodies..., but at least they can be open foundations to which it is not mandatory to join (as in the case of cloudflare)- available to BGP backbones and routed on a network, castrate th…

So if someone becomes part of the bonnet, they are denied all access to the internet

(I am not a lawyer) I don't know how legal it actually is, how enforceable it is, and if the whole marker applies those, but my ISP contract has provisions that says I'm not authorized to invade or damage third parties using their internet service.

Re: Ask HN: How to survive indefinite DDoS attack?

#36
post #13
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't it bring you a tiny bit of concern that this is only current answer people can give?

There are others e.g. ddos-guard, akamai.

How much do they cost? That first one starts at $100/month

Re: Ask HN: How to survive indefinite DDoS attack?

#37
post #14

I work for a company in the DDoS mitigation space and there is not nearly enough information in your question for anyone to offer any kind of sensible response for your particular situation. What is your business? How much traffic "normal" do you get? What is the size of the attack? What is the bandwidth of your upstream connection? Who are your customers? Where is it hosted? What are your acceptable thresholds for f…

Who would be more advanced than Cloudflare?

Re: Ask HN: How to survive indefinite DDoS attack?

#38
post #33

I think about this sometimes. Shouldn't there be a way for your app server to report to your DoS protection service which requests are abusive and which are legit? Like a fail2ban but distributed: if someone connects and sends invalid credentials, block them at the ISP or proxy level, not on your host's firewall. It's possible that this doesn't exist for good reasons though, I am not sure how the numbers work out in…

If your provider has an API for the firewall/protection, just use fail2ban with cURL to block certain traffic.

This can be done with Cloudflare using this action: https://github.com/fail2ban/fail2ban/blob/master/config/acti...

Re: Ask HN: How to survive indefinite DDoS attack?

#39
There are lots of posts here about using Cloudflare. There's also X4B[1] and Cohmbaton[2] in case you're looking for a non-Cloudflare alternative.

You've mentioned that your hosting provider has DDOS protection (which is usually Voxility[3]/Path[4]) will usually send traffic to your VPS through their scrubbing centers, taking care of the L4 attacks. Ratelimiting and aggressive caching can take care of the rest.

If you're completely into this on your own, consider setting up a number of PoPs which relay traffic to your backend servers, and these PoPs should drop UDP traffic dropped the prerouting level to drop packets without high CPU consumption. There's also eBPF/XDP, but those require much more engineering work and a compatible network card that can run a eBPF program, otherwise you're still using the CPU to drop packets.

[1] https://www.x4b.net

[2] https://www.combahton.net

[3] https://www.voxility.com

[4] https://path.net

Re: Ask HN: How to survive indefinite DDoS attack?

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also whitelist the cloudflare IP's and block all other traffic, that way the only traffic hitting your origin is through the proxy.

If under heavy DDOS, it's very likely that your available upstream/downstream bandwidth is already starved, so dropping requests at your public IP level is too late.

good point
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