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Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

nature.com

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Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#31

Post by RetroTechie »

jtbayly wrote: post #13
RetroTechie wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just fertilizer: "In addition to its use in the fertilizer and chemical industries, ammonia is currently seen as a potential replacement for carbon-based fuels and as a carrier for worldwide transportation of renewable energy." Long-term grid storage? Publication: 22 July 2022 Anyone know if maybe some pilot / small scale production facility has been set up in the mean time? I've read about a farm that produced i…

Farms have been producing their own fertilizer for centuries. ;-)

Yeah I know. Wasn't talking about that.

https://phys.org/news/2021-02-plasma-technology-world.html https://portal.nifa.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/1025777-lo... https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acssuschemeng.2c06357 (paywalled)

"plasma" and "NOx" seem to be the keywords here (so other process than discussed here).

Not at scale (yet), cost unclear. But the technology exists, and being improved upon.

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#32

Post by Terr_ »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #19
fbdab103 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there power plants today that burn ammonia directly? If not, is it a simple/cheap enough conversion?

While not in mass production, there is strong interest from the marine shipping industry. It can be produced near ports, and meets the storage and combustion engine constraints (similar to diesel) of the use case. https://spectrum.ieee.org/why-the-shipping-industry-is-betti... https://www.wartsila.com/media/news/30-06-2020-world-s-first... https://www.lr.org/en/about-us/press-listing/press-release/i... https://www.am…

A sibling comment mentions scrubbing NOx emissions as a significant issue, and it strikes me that the shipping/cruise industry is already a major polluter in that area. (Unlike cars, which must have catalytic converters because of local landlubber laws.)

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#33

Post by aifooh7Keew6xoo »

RetroTechie wrote: post #7
londons_explore wrote: post #2

Big if true... This could enable fertilizer production with no CO2 emissions. The numbers in the paper suggest that it might prove cheaper than natural gas based production which is common today. Fertilizer production is 2.1% of all CO2 emissions right now.

Not just fertilizer: "In addition to its use in the fertilizer and chemical industries, ammonia is currently seen as a potential replacement for carbon-based fuels and as a carrier for worldwide transportation of renewable energy." Long-term grid storage? Publication: 22 July 2022 Anyone know if maybe some pilot / small scale production facility has been set up in the mean time? I've read about a farm that produced i…

Where are all the people that complain about the dangers and impracticality of hydrogen when the topic of using a corrosive gas that poses an immediate danger to life and health at concentrations as low as 300 ppm as a fuel comes up?

They're trying to avoid using the stuff in industrial refrigeration it's so nasty, and yet here we are gleefully considering rolling down the highway with it in the cheapest vessel industry can lobby for strapped to our bum.

I guess the notion has passed so quickly we haven't had time for the media to program us with corporate agendas...

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#34

Post by marcodiego »

ilyt wrote: post #26
marcodiego wrote: post #5

[flagged]

[flagged]

And I’d suggest you to be this rude somewhere else. You are entitled to ignore my question or downvote it. A bit of negative karma is way more didactic than your comment. Acting with this level of arrogance, no matter how out of touch my comment may be, isn’t good for anyone.

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#35

Post by Projectiboga »

adrian_b wrote: post #22
fbdab103 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there power plants today that burn ammonia directly? If not, is it a simple/cheap enough conversion?

There has been a lot of research in fuel cells that generate electricity from ammonia, with much simpler storage problems than for hydrogen.

Yes, fuel cells need more usage as we move away from oil & unnatural gas.

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#36

Post by toomuchtodo »

Terr_ wrote: post #32
toomuchtodo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While not in mass production, there is strong interest from the marine shipping industry. It can be produced near ports, and meets the storage and combustion engine constraints (similar to diesel) of the use case. https://spectrum.ieee.org/why-the-shipping-industry-is-betti... https://www.wartsila.com/media/news/30-06-2020-world-s-first... https://www.lr.org/en/about-us/press-listing/press-release/i... https://www.am…

A sibling comment mentions scrubbing NOx emissions as a significant issue, and it strikes me that the shipping/cruise industry is already a major polluter in that area. (Unlike cars, which must have catalytic converters because of local landlubber laws.)

High efficiency scrubbing appears to be feasible.

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.energyfuels.3c01419

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#38

Post by PumpkinSpice »

aifooh7Keew6xoo wrote: post #33
RetroTechie wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just fertilizer: "In addition to its use in the fertilizer and chemical industries, ammonia is currently seen as a potential replacement for carbon-based fuels and as a carrier for worldwide transportation of renewable energy." Long-term grid storage? Publication: 22 July 2022 Anyone know if maybe some pilot / small scale production facility has been set up in the mean time? I've read about a farm that produced i…

Where are all the people that complain about the dangers and impracticality of hydrogen when the topic of using a corrosive gas that poses an immediate danger to life and health at concentrations as low as 300 ppm as a fuel comes up? They're trying to avoid using the stuff in industrial refrigeration it's so nasty, and yet here we are gleefully considering rolling down the highway with it in the cheapest vessel indus…

I don't think it's realistic as a fuel for cars, but "worldwide transportation" means more than that. I suspect they're talking about container ships, tankers, and such.

Ammonia is easier to liquify than hydrogen, and is in many respects easier to handle. However, it's definitely not something you want to have a spill of at a gas station or in your garage, and for that reason, it probably won't have "consumer" uses.

As far as industrial gasses go, it's certainly nowhere near the worst, and there's plenty of ammonia tankers on the roads today, but large spills do kill people every now and then.

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#39

Post by aifooh7Keew6xoo »

adrian_b wrote: post #22
fbdab103 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there power plants today that burn ammonia directly? If not, is it a simple/cheap enough conversion?

There has been a lot of research in fuel cells that generate electricity from ammonia, with much simpler storage problems than for hydrogen.

I'm not sure I'd leap to "much simpler storage problems than for hydrogen" for a highly corrosive gas.

The lower explosive limit of hydrogen is ~4%. By comparison the 300 ppm immediate danger to life and health threshold of ammonia is .03%.

It is intrinsically dangerous, i.e. without a source of ignition, at concentrations 2 orders of magnitude lower than the LEL of hydrogen.

Not every hydrogen leak is a concern, but just about every ammonia leak is.

The established OSHA 15 minute exposure limit for ammonia is 35 ppm, 8 hours is 25 ppm.

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#40

Post by galangalalgol »

Projectiboga wrote: post #35
adrian_b wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has been a lot of research in fuel cells that generate electricity from ammonia, with much simpler storage problems than for hydrogen.

Yes, fuel cells need more usage as we move away from oil & unnatural gas.

Direct propane fuel cells have some thermal issues, but recently there was a breakthrough in propane synthesis that would make it efficient to produce. Are ammonia fuelcells efficient?
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