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Etsy Hacker Grants: Supporting Women in Technology

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Re: Etsy Hacker Grants: Supporting Women in Technology

#31

Post by dmix »

ceol wrote: post #29
dmix wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By your logic, scholarships "based on need or because the person comes from a poor socioeconomic background" would be considered classist. Of course the selection of recipients is classist... so is $100k tuition. The whole point is to reduce the impact that class and socioeconomic background has on who can attend the institution. The result is a more meritocratic application process, which I believe is a worthy goa…

> The whole point is to reduce the impact that class and socioeconomic background has on who can attend the institution. And the whole point of Etsy's scholarship is to reduce the impact that gender has on who gets into the tech field. > You twisted my words. I said the selection of who gets the grant is sexist by nature. I admitted the motivation for doing so is to help reduce sexism via creating biases on the other…

Fair points.

Theres different ways to approach them problem. I'm much more inclined to figure out what the deeper problems are and address them (ignorances, biases, misconceptions etc)

I feel that grants may only be patching the surface and don't really address the higher level problems.

My cofounder is a female hacker and I recently mentored a "Ladies Learning Code" event.

From that I've learned its best to communicate why programming is fun and interesting. To get past their misconceptions that its all geeky male culture and actually a really rewarding skillset.

Reducing those misconceptions on both sides will have a long term impact. Humans have been effective at evolving and changing "common sense". Newer generations are incredibly more tolerant of race/gender than older ones. I believe that happens through changing peoples understanding of the issues and trying hard to not further segregate it into us vs them groups.

Re: Etsy Hacker Grants: Supporting Women in Technology

#32

Post by peterwwillis »

bitops wrote: post #27
peterwwillis wrote: post #25

What about grants for black people? There's arguably even less black people in technology than women. We don't seem to talk about that though, as women-in-tech always seems easier to argue about ("are they being sexist?" is easier to talk about than "are they being racist?" or "do low-income and/or poorly-educated and/or resource-starved people deserve more help getting into the field?") "Last September, three out of…

Definitely a valid point and deserving of an entirely separate thread of discussion. That said, I don't think talking about gender imbalance in software development takes away from discussing racial imbalance in software development. And I do think underrepresentation is an issue on all sides. In my career so far, I think I've met a total of 5 black programmers. The fact that I can remember the exact number is a prob…

Of course they're all valid issues. That doesn't answer anything i've asked, though. I want to know why support is only being given to women and not people who probably have a harder time getting into the field. This doesn't need a separate thread, it speaks exactly to the topic which is Etsy giving grants to only women.

Re: Etsy Hacker Grants: Supporting Women in Technology

#33

Post by peterwwillis »

Qz wrote: post #5
Frozenlock wrote: post #3

If someone gives less money to women, -because they are women- it's sexism. How giving money to women -because they are women- isn't sexism? A more honest approach would be to hire the most qualified person, regardless of your current male/female ratio.

It's compensative sexism.

I think the more accurate term is "reverse sexism." When efforts are made to combat sexism (with good intentions) that don't lead to actually working against or solving the root cause of the original sexism. Though sexism is never mentioned in the article, so we can't say that's the intention behind this initiative at all.

Re: Etsy Hacker Grants: Supporting Women in Technology

#34

Post by kaylarose »

Getting more women into tech* isn't just about the money...

1.) Not encouraged in early years: If you are a tech-savvy female, "soft" tech careers (Graphic Design etc.) are generally recommended as career paths.

2.) It's a Boy's Club: If you make it past the college classes (with a 20:1 M-to-F ratio), you enter the workforce with (mostly) the same ratio. This means that unless you have thick skin & a good sense of humor, you'll never make it.

3.) You're Wrong: Even if you are right. And no one will hesitate to tell you why.

* Speaking for a professional career in Tech.

In my experience, a lot of these actually provoke you to strive to over-achieve & prove yourself. But I can see how it can seem off-putting for a new-comer.

Re: Etsy Hacker Grants: Supporting Women in Technology

#35

Post by gcb »

marquis wrote: post #21

Again and again, criticism comes up against affirmative action to get more women in computing. How can this possibly be unfair? How many of you know what it is really like to be a woman in computing? Can you imagine what it is like to go to a tech conference and be judged on your gender? To be approached as if you must be someone's girlfriend because why else would you be here, or otherwise be some freak of nature? T…

All that happens with socially inept man, but they can't dismiss it on gender.

Re: Etsy Hacker Grants: Supporting Women in Technology

#36

Post by [deleted] »

kaylarose wrote: post #34

Getting more women into tech* isn't just about the money ... 1.) Not encouraged in early years: If you are a tech-savvy female, "soft" tech careers (Graphic Design etc.) are generally recommended as career paths. 2.) It's a Boy's Club: If you make it past the college classes (with a 20:1 M-to-F ratio), you enter the workforce with (mostly) the same ratio. This means that unless you have thick skin & a good sense of h…

[deleted]

Re: Etsy Hacker Grants: Supporting Women in Technology

#37

Post by coderdude »

kaylarose wrote: post #34

Getting more women into tech* isn't just about the money ... 1.) Not encouraged in early years: If you are a tech-savvy female, "soft" tech careers (Graphic Design etc.) are generally recommended as career paths. 2.) It's a Boy's Club: If you make it past the college classes (with a 20:1 M-to-F ratio), you enter the workforce with (mostly) the same ratio. This means that unless you have thick skin & a good sense of h…

I'm surprised this is still an issue. The guys here can't seem to trip over each other quickly enough to white knight imaginary women from any possible sexism. Is there a tech crowd that isn't obsessed over this topic and is making us all endure having to hear that Leisure Suit Larry is sexist and why? Speaking as a guy who managed guys and gals alike (in tech) and never treated them like children.

Re: Etsy Hacker Grants: Supporting Women in Technology

#38

Post by euccastro »

guimarin wrote: post #2

I think it's great to look into why your organization doesn't have more women represented across its divisions. I even think outreach in the form of awareness about this 'problem' is great. I dislike the implicit message being sent by offering money specifically to women to go into engineering/computer science. At best it says, we know you know that engineering is not a field your interested in because your a woman w…

> I dislike the implicit message being sent by offering money specifically to women to go into engineering/computer science.

[Disclaimer: I'm attending the current batch of Hacker School and was mad impressed at Etsy's facilities in a recent visit.]

I don't think Etsy is offering women money to attract them into the field, if that's what you mean. As I understand it, the proximate purpose of the money is to enable those women that are otherwise interested in the Hacker School proposition. Supporting oneself in an expensive city like NY for three months is a nontrivial handicap.

The gesture delivers the message that women are appreciated, at least in this particular environment. This may be the right kind of nudge.

In more prosaic terms, because of the newsworthiness of this initiative more women will learn of this opportunity.

It doesn't make sense to me to think of that as a 'bonus'. Who wants to hire anyone that would base their career choice on a $5K bribe?

Re: Etsy Hacker Grants: Supporting Women in Technology

#39

Post by euccastro »

kaylarose wrote: post #34

Getting more women into tech* isn't just about the money ... 1.) Not encouraged in early years: If you are a tech-savvy female, "soft" tech careers (Graphic Design etc.) are generally recommended as career paths. 2.) It's a Boy's Club: If you make it past the college classes (with a 20:1 M-to-F ratio), you enter the workforce with (mostly) the same ratio. This means that unless you have thick skin & a good sense of h…

Getting more women into tech isn't just about the money...*

I don't suppose you're implying the OP means otherwise?

Re: Etsy Hacker Grants: Supporting Women in Technology

#40

Post by wladimir »

peterwwillis wrote: post #25

What about grants for black people? There's arguably even less black people in technology than women. We don't seem to talk about that though, as women-in-tech always seems easier to argue about ("are they being sexist?" is easier to talk about than "are they being racist?" or "do low-income and/or poorly-educated and/or resource-starved people deserve more help getting into the field?") "Last September, three out of…

It seems that overall, "race balance" is harder to define than "gender balance" because the gender balance is about 50% in every country, whereas the race balance can vary wildly.

That doesn't make it less important or valid of course. Race discrimination is a serious issue in many countries.

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