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Armbian and Devuan = Armvuan

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31–40 of 55 posts

Re: Armbian and Devuan = Armvuan

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> independent projects? P you mean like flatpack and snap which also have the benefit of decoupling .so dependency management? or maybe like nix which you can run as a package manager on other dristros then NixOS?

Not really. I just meant that an OS team probably should only work on engineering and shipping the actual OS and should not dedicate a minute of their time to running a repository with Audacity or Wesnoth in it (I like and use both). Someone else should (as long as they feel interested).

We already have that.

For one like the other comment pointed out different people internally often already work on different packages.

For the other external repositories are a thing.

But they are often not trusted, and if a package is maintained by upstream often it is only for one or two repos.

So it fix it you would need a repository which can work across distributions. Where maintainers exist independent of the distributions but also the organization is big and reputable enough so that people do trust it.

But to have that you need to use technology which abstracts over differences in distros especially wrt. .so dependencies. Like nix, flatpack or snap.

Or in other words I believe you either have what we have today. Or you have a core OS (which still needs packages and package managing!) and the rest is using technology similar to nix, flatpack or snap to provides package repos across distros.

Re: Armbian and Devuan = Armvuan

#32
post #14
post #13

Is Devuan still having a usecase? No offense, I am simply curious. Lately I see statements that you can use standard Debian and have it instaled without systemd. It won't be the default I assume, but how do Devuan and Debian (without systemd) compare nowadays?

Since the change, you could always use debian without systemd. It was trivial, especially for servers. Desktops took more care, but that was still a non-issue. But lately, especially since bookworm, things are less solid. rsyslogd is not a default install item now, and when you install it, there is no init script. This is fine for servers which want centralized logging under systemd, because of course it can start sy…

> rsyslogd is not a default install item now, and when you install it, there is no init script.

It’s in the orphan-sysvinit-scripts package.

Re: Armbian and Devuan = Armvuan

#34
post #19

I'm sure all six users of it will be happy

Does it matter how many users there are if the people who made it are happy with their work?

Are they ? Because all of that looks like posturing on principles.

Like, I have plenty of issues with systemd but still on span of 461 systems we manage (mostly Debian with some centos here and there) with variety of use cases (from "legacy" to k8s running on ceph cluster) it saved us tens of thousands lines of code and allowed some tricky use cases to be far more reliable than before.

Because apparently despise vehement claims sysV scripts are "simple" and "straightforward" it turns out there is plenty of edge cases that most developers don't fix in those scripts.

For example the fact doing start -> status immediately after in many Java apps will tell you your application is not running, because developer delegated Java app to write its own pid file and that takes time for JVM to start. So if something like Pacemaker does exactly that (start app, wait for start script to finish, run status, Pacemaker thinks app didn't start and fails the service).

Re: Armbian and Devuan = Armvuan

#35
post #13

Is Devuan still having a usecase? No offense, I am simply curious. Lately I see statements that you can use standard Debian and have it instaled without systemd. It won't be the default I assume, but how do Devuan and Debian (without systemd) compare nowadays?

It is systemd free BY DEFAULT ... which does change EVERYTHING

Re: Armbian and Devuan = Armvuan

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's the way the "immutable" distros are going. they provide a base system and then a ton of packages come from containers or flatpaks. Like things based on OpenSuSE's MicroOS or Fedora's Silverblue and Kinoite but it does require the flavors currently, since the DE are considered core packages.

Can't we still have traditional repositories though? I personally dislike snaps and flatpaks because they usually are shipped with libarries hard-baked in rather than using separately-updatable libraries in the OS, using them also often means app duplication on per-user level and at least Snap didn't support Guest sessions (because of non-standard home directory path) the last time I checked.

> using separately-updatable libraries in the OS

There are separately updatable shared libraries via runtimes, they're just not managed by the OS (on purpose).

Re: Armbian and Devuan = Armvuan

#37
post #32
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since the change, you could always use debian without systemd. It was trivial, especially for servers. Desktops took more care, but that was still a non-issue. But lately, especially since bookworm, things are less solid. rsyslogd is not a default install item now, and when you install it, there is no init script. This is fine for servers which want centralized logging under systemd, because of course it can start sy…

> rsyslogd is not a default install item now, and when you install it, there is no init script. It’s in the orphan-sysvinit-scripts package.

What a strange place to put it, there's loads of sysinit scripts still, but thanks for the heads up.

Re: other response...

None of those things require systemd under debian, and it's easy to use sysvinit. I run loads of systems without systemd.

Re: Armbian and Devuan = Armvuan

#38
post #14
post #13

Is Devuan still having a usecase? No offense, I am simply curious. Lately I see statements that you can use standard Debian and have it instaled without systemd. It won't be the default I assume, but how do Devuan and Debian (without systemd) compare nowadays?

Since the change, you could always use debian without systemd. It was trivial, especially for servers. Desktops took more care, but that was still a non-issue. But lately, especially since bookworm, things are less solid. rsyslogd is not a default install item now, and when you install it, there is no init script. This is fine for servers which want centralized logging under systemd, because of course it can start sy…

To my knowledge, this is not trivial (maybe not even possible now). there are simply too many packages that now define systemd as a requirement, like udev, dbus, etc.

If you want a systemd-free Debian, then Devuan is your go-to.

Re: Armbian and Devuan = Armvuan

#39
post #9

Choosing the opposite syllables for the portmanteau would have given Debian, which has a nicer ring to it.

all i know is i doubt my insurance covers armbian but i know it definitely already covers Devuan for my 19 year old arthritic cats seizures...

ill be sure to ask my veterinarian if once daily Armvuan is right for pickles though.

Re: Armbian and Devuan = Armvuan

#40

> It is built in the simplest way, using Devuan debootstrapped system with kernel, dtb, u-boot, and board support packages from Armbian By the way, reading this, an idea just hit me. It persistantly seems evident distro maintains often struggle to maintain huge repositories in both well-tested and up-to-date state. Why don't we separate OS distribution and apps repos into separate independent projects? Perhaps it cou…

I think you are describing GNU auto tools. It ends up being too complicated because projects have anti-dependencies with each other.

The Linux Filesystem Hierarchy Standard also tried to do what you are saying, but in a less ambitious way.

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