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Nomnoml

nomnoml.com

31–40 of 165 posts

Re: Nomnoml

#31

These tools show up from time to time here, and I can appreciate the technical side of things and effort put into building the tool. However, I cannot imagine using something like this in practice - either at work or for my own uses. It's so much easier just to select, drag and drop graphical elements instead of spending time learning a specific markup language and typing everything out, hoping that the elements will…

I use PlantUML a lot, for communicating complex technical designs for juniors to implement for example, or simply for documentation.

It's nice to have your diagrams as readable code which you can check in with the rest of your git repository and embed in READMEs, and the syntax is really intuitive and easy to learn. I haven't made the comparison with this particular tool yet, but in general I'd recommend this practice of including diagrams with your docs.

Re: Nomnoml

#32
I have a hard time understanding why any engineering team I've ever worked on would use this. Can someone sell this idea to me? Seems like a waste of time when you can knock up fast and easier to understand diagrams with something like Miro which also can be done in a multi-user environment.

Re: Nomnoml

#33

I have a hard time understanding why any engineering team I've ever worked on would use this. Can someone sell this idea to me? Seems like a waste of time when you can knock up fast and easier to understand diagrams with something like Miro which also can be done in a multi-user environment.

I work with someone who is blind, and our diagrams are written in something similar to this (can't remember the name, but confluence either supports it out of the box or there's a plugin for it).

And personally, if you're going to suggest an alternative, Miro is not the one. Irritating SAAS nonsense

Re: Nomnoml

#34

I have a hard time understanding why any engineering team I've ever worked on would use this. Can someone sell this idea to me? Seems like a waste of time when you can knock up fast and easier to understand diagrams with something like Miro which also can be done in a multi-user environment.

I use mermaidjs for basically everything documentation related. It works in GitHub ... confluence ... everywhere. This looks like a much prettier version of that.

Re: Nomnoml

#35

These tools show up from time to time here, and I can appreciate the technical side of things and effort put into building the tool. However, I cannot imagine using something like this in practice - either at work or for my own uses. It's so much easier just to select, drag and drop graphical elements instead of spending time learning a specific markup language and typing everything out, hoping that the elements will…

> Maybe it's not too bad for very simple diagrams but unmanageable for anything complex

On the contrary, I use drag&drop tools for very simple diagrams but prefer using PlantUML for anything complex because its text-based interface makes it easy to generate, diff or store in a git repository. The best of both worlds would be a text-based tool to hold the semantics of your graph, and then a drag&drop interface to fix the layout.

Re: Nomnoml

#36

These tools show up from time to time here, and I can appreciate the technical side of things and effort put into building the tool. However, I cannot imagine using something like this in practice - either at work or for my own uses. It's so much easier just to select, drag and drop graphical elements instead of spending time learning a specific markup language and typing everything out, hoping that the elements will…

I got quite far asking an LLM to type it out for me. and I got some nice diagrams to visualize the project I was thinking about.

Re: Nomnoml

#37

These tools show up from time to time here, and I can appreciate the technical side of things and effort put into building the tool. However, I cannot imagine using something like this in practice - either at work or for my own uses. It's so much easier just to select, drag and drop graphical elements instead of spending time learning a specific markup language and typing everything out, hoping that the elements will…

Reasons to make the effort to do this in markup:

1. You can build tools to automatically generate these diagrams from existing software quite easily. I've used tools like this to generate diagrams that were impractical documentation (150+ sheets of A4 when printed), but showed class or module dependency hotspots in a way that would have taken weeks to understand from the code alone: a picture speaks a thousand words, and getting your code to give you a picture is useful.

2. You can version control them - and see change history - more easily through a markup/code approach than a GUI approach. When teams collaborate over a complicated piece of design, being able to see who contributed what and when in a diagram is as useful as it is seeing it for a piece of code. I'd argue the first responsibility of a programmer in a modern team is to communicate, and to do so in a collaborative fashion. Code, tests, documentation, should allow easy collaborative understanding, editing and iteration. Diagrams that don't have editable markup make this harder in a small way.

3. The semantics of the markup actually make you think through what it is you're trying to express. It's easy to draw a line connecting two shapes but what does that line actually mean? I find when I'm typing up markup for a diagram, this becomes something I more consciously consider.

4. A markup standard means there is likely to be multiple tools that support the reading, editing and creation of the artifacts you create. Some people feel it's easier to use a WYSIWYG word processor, but I think we can all agree that Markdown is a useful innovation that has stimulated some experimentation and development in the text editing domain.

5. Most "hand-drawn" GUI-based diagrams look ugly (most programmers can't design diagrams well), but using an algorithm to make layout choices provides consistency and better layouts.

6. Many "hand-drawn" diagrams are full of style inconsistencies. With a markup + parser = diagram approach, you can enforce a house style, update that style easily, and everybody's diagrams in a doc look aesthetically similar rather than each individual's personal preference on line weights and arrow styles. It's a bit like separating HTML and CSS - hard to do in a GUI-only approach. In larger teams with a dev wiki, all the diagrams looking similar is just nicer.

YMMV, but I'd give this approach serious consideration - this tool looks great, but there are others, and it's worth evaluating them if one doesn't impress you. I'm a graphviz guy, but I might consider looking at this more closely.

Re: Nomnoml

#38
Getting a good layout is too dependent on the order of definition. I can see that becoming unsolvable for the user for large diagrams but seems ok for small ones. For example the following gives an ugly yet valid layout of the example:

  [more loot] no ->[e]
  [start] -> [plunder] -> [more loot] -> [start]

  [Pirate|
    [foul mouth]mischief| bawl | sing || yell | drink ]
  [Marauder]Jolly;Sailor]
  
  [sailor]->[rum]
  [Pirate]-> *[rum|tastiness: Int|swig()]
  [sailor]->[Pirate]

Re: Nomnoml

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that the point of posting/ commenting on HN? So that we can discuss about the post? I see something on HN and after checking it, I would definitely comment on HN first.

As someone who has been working on open source software for 5 years now, GitHub issues are my primary source of truth for what users want and how to go about prioritizing features. If people can’t be bothered to log an issue or thumbs-up/comment on an existing one, it can’t be such an important thing to them.

That’s your experience; I’ve been working on open source software for 10 years now and GitHub issues are just one source of feedback; Reddit/HN, other forums, conferences, anything can be useful to meet your users and get ideas on what to improve.
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