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Pubs replaced banks in Ireland for several months in 1970 (2016)

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Re: Pubs replaced banks in Ireland for several months in 1970 (2016)

#31

Post by robertlagrant »

becquerel wrote: post #8
digdugdirk wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A perfect example of my favourite part of any "class warfare" talk. Even for the "capital" class, the system isn't necessarily in their favour. It's only when you're at the absolute peak that you get the benefits. Everyone else is perfectly disposable, society just runs smoother when society believes that 6 figure salaries puts someone on the other side of the fence.

The class divide isn't based around an arbitrary salary, or specific job positions. It's whether you have hire/fire powers and you make money off of other people's labour, rather than selling your own. Hollywood actors and famous football players are often very rich, but they sell their labor to get by. They don't own the means of production

What's the means of production for a footballer? A football?

Re: Pubs replaced banks in Ireland for several months in 1970 (2016)

#32

Post by robertlagrant »

kaashif wrote: post #17
becquerel wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The class divide isn't based around an arbitrary salary, or specific job positions. It's whether you have hire/fire powers and you make money off of other people's labour, rather than selling your own. Hollywood actors and famous football players are often very rich, but they sell their labor to get by. They don't own the means of production

> Hollywood actors and famous football players are often very rich, but they sell their labor to get by. But there's a key difference. They don't need to continue to sell their labor, they can stop at any time and live on e.g. income from dividends. Or maybe they have enough cash they could literally not even invest it and still live fine. Although they may not own the means of production right at this moment, they e…

You tomorrow could start out as a carpenter, buy a hammer and own the means of production. It's not a high bar to clear.

Re: Pubs replaced banks in Ireland for several months in 1970 (2016)

#33

Post by tormeh »

booleandilemma wrote: post #20
becquerel wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The class divide isn't based around an arbitrary salary, or specific job positions. It's whether you have hire/fire powers and you make money off of other people's labour, rather than selling your own. Hollywood actors and famous football players are often very rich, but they sell their labor to get by. They don't own the means of production

It's whether you have hire/fire powers and you make money off of other people's labour I think creating a hierarchy of managers and workers is just another tool that the people with power use to control everyone else. Surely my direct manager has more in common with me than the CEO? Am I wrong to think this? Wouldn't the CEO see both managers and their teams as mere workers?

Technically CEOs are also working class, since they mostly live off of their salary. A lot of this is voluntary, since with a bit less spending I'd imagine most BigCo CEOs could easily cope on capital income from the investments their salaries have afforded them. I wonder how that affects their classification...

Re: Pubs replaced banks in Ireland for several months in 1970 (2016)

#34

Post by robertlagrant »

pierat wrote: post #18
becquerel wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The class divide isn't based around an arbitrary salary, or specific job positions. It's whether you have hire/fire powers and you make money off of other people's labour, rather than selling your own. Hollywood actors and famous football players are often very rich, but they sell their labor to get by. They don't own the means of production

And so much of our society is bound by who you work for: medical insurance, social standing, etc. And so many people just don't understand that there's really 4 classes: poverty, able to live, owner/landlord, royalty. (The USA has the politician class in place of royalty.) Note I didn't say "middle class". That term originally was the constructed 'rich merchant non-royalty" class that was founded out of mercantilism…

The problem with this simplification is that it ignores risk. Being an employee means you get paid, and can change job it the business fails. Bring an owner/investor means you might lose all your money if the business fails. That is massive risk, and entirely ignored by the above characterisation.

Re: Pubs replaced banks in Ireland for several months in 1970 (2016)

#35

Post by yosefjaved1 »

throw0101a wrote: post #13

Patrick Boyle did a video on it a little while ago: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFIQWWt4UaA * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_bank_strikes_(1966–1976)

For 21 minutes and 53 seconds, I highly recommend this video. It gives so much context and describes the situation in as neutral of a tone as it's possible with a sprinkle of dry humor. Also, Patrick takes it a step further by answering the question if something like this could work again as well as discuss how this system that emerged compares to modern day cryptocurrency systems.

Re: Pubs replaced banks in Ireland for several months in 1970 (2016)

#36

Post by kmonsen »

ehnto wrote: post #21
terminous wrote: post #9

> "I deal only with my regulars … I refuse strangers." > ‘They are mostly strangers to us, and we just have to play it by ear in deciding whether to accept a cheque’, said an official.” Sounds like a recipe for discrimination and inequality, which isn't mentioned in either article.

1970s Ireland was very homogenous, which is to say white. It wasn't until the 90s that immigration began flowing in the other direction to a meaningful degree. So while I agree with you, it was unlikely a problem at the time. Although that doesn't cover gender or class discrimination so I suppose that was still an issue.

Or more importantly in Ireland, religions based discrimination

Re: Pubs replaced banks in Ireland for several months in 1970 (2016)

#37

Post by nayuki »

robertlagrant wrote: post #31
becquerel wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The class divide isn't based around an arbitrary salary, or specific job positions. It's whether you have hire/fire powers and you make money off of other people's labour, rather than selling your own. Hollywood actors and famous football players are often very rich, but they sell their labor to get by. They don't own the means of production

What's the means of production for a footballer? A football?

Themself - the ability to attract a paying audience.

Re: Pubs replaced banks in Ireland for several months in 1970 (2016)

#38

Post by AnthonyMouse »

mlyle wrote: post #28
version_five wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, much better for everybody to be screwed in the name of equity.

While keeping something running via an informal system is better than nothing, and most people might be okay... if you're just kinda shifty looking or unpopular at the moment in your local pub and have a much harder time than everyone else, that's not exactly great. That is, it's not only the common experience that matters, but the outliers too. The basic tools of society should be available even if you're ugly, anno…

This problem is far worse with a concentrated system than a decentralized one. If there are five local pubs and one of them won't have you, well, still four more. If there is only one bank and their loan officer doesn't like the cut of your jib, or their algorithm has decided to have a false positive, you're done.

Though of course the modern problem isn't that there is only one bank, it's that there is only one bank regulator which subjects all of the banks to the same incentives, and if those rule you out you're effectively prohibited from using a bank in another jurisdiction with different rules.

What you need for this is something permissionless.

Re: Pubs replaced banks in Ireland for several months in 1970 (2016)

#39

Post by pierat »

robertlagrant wrote: post #34
pierat wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And so much of our society is bound by who you work for: medical insurance, social standing, etc. And so many people just don't understand that there's really 4 classes: poverty, able to live, owner/landlord, royalty. (The USA has the politician class in place of royalty.) Note I didn't say "middle class". That term originally was the constructed 'rich merchant non-royalty" class that was founded out of mercantilism…

The problem with this simplification is that it ignores risk. Being an employee means you get paid, and can change job it the business fails. Bring an owner/investor means you might lose all your money if the business fails. That is massive risk, and entirely ignored by the above characterisation.

Oh please. And you're up-playing risk.

Let's talk local.

We have lots of cheap shit 3 story stick built apartments. ( https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-02-13/why-ameri... ) The ones opened are charging half of Boston for rents. And I'm not even in a megacity or state capitol.

The same apartments are getting 10 year tax abatements, because they are "good for business" aka trickle-down.

During the pandemic, pandemic "loans" were given to hundreds of businesses in the local area. And those loans were turned into grants (not have to pay back).

And landlords are usually smaller, but again, they're another reason why housing is stupid priced: it's common to see a rental of a home priced at mortgage+30% . The landlord gets their principal covered, keeps the property, and raises costs for everyone.

None of these apply to me or my family, sans the whole big $1200 relief check. I have no tax abatements, and pay taxes in full every paycheck and when I buy stuff. And local governments usually allow whatever by companies unless there's a big fuss. And, those corporate promises about hiring people or bringing in business? Yeah, not actually enforced.

And I didn't even discuss "too big to fail", fed govt propping up industries, and the like.

Re: Pubs replaced banks in Ireland for several months in 1970 (2016)

#40

Post by __MatrixMan__ »

robertlagrant wrote: post #32
kaashif wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hollywood actors and famous football players are often very rich, but they sell their labor to get by. But there's a key difference. They don't need to continue to sell their labor, they can stop at any time and live on e.g. income from dividends. Or maybe they have enough cash they could literally not even invest it and still live fine. Although they may not own the means of production right at this moment, they e…

You tomorrow could start out as a carpenter, buy a hammer and own the means of production. It's not a high bar to clear.

A hammer is a poor example of the means of production now that they're so easy to come by. The chokepoint is elsewhere.

A more relevant example would be influence over the information that people consult when they're deciding which carpenter to hire. You need both a hammer and a place to swing it that gets you paid--and nobody is trying to restrict access to hammers to protect their position.

This is why many of our most valuable companies are ad companies--you operate at a disadvantage unless you give them a cut of your profits.

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