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Are you an Asker or a Guesser? (2010)

theguardian.com

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Re: Are you an Asker or a Guesser? (2010)

#31

Post by 0xfae »

OkayPhysicist wrote: post #17
0xfae wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who grew up in America (typically ask culture) but also grew up in a very guess culture family, subculture and religion (Utah Mormons), this seems insane to me. I grew up guess culture so I understand it, but ask culture is so much clearer/concise/kinder in my opinion. Less likely to be misunderstood and build resentment, etc. The wikipedia article states the "Taarof is a ritual politeness that levels the…

If things are regularly being offered with the expectation that they'll be declined, or declined in expectation that they'll be eventually accepted, it allows for wiggle room where somebody can choose to break the social expectation, in effect burning some of their reputation in exchange for fulfilling a short-term need.

Fascinating. There are rules of the social game that people usually follow, but can be subverted in a move that cashes in reputation or "social capital" for a short term gain. If you do it too often, you lose favor and people will stop offering you things repeatedly, and you are expected to pick up on the social cues. I can see how that creates more social wiggle room than a strict set of rules that everyone is expected to always follow.

Re: Are you an Asker or a Guesser? (2010)

#32

Post by udev »

timeagain wrote: post #6

The article discusses how agonizing it must be for a guesser when they have to say no to something. But something I have been dealing with recently is actually the reverse—the resentment a guesser feels when told “no”. Because in their mind, they have done the math and think they have correctly deduced they should receive a “yes”. Forthwrmore, since they don’t like saying “no”, they project this on their rejector and…

From information perspective we are looking at two pieces of information: the request itself, and the answer.

The answer contains just 1 bit of information, yes or no.

The request carries much more information. Did you chose me specifically from all my colleagues for this request? This informs me about you and how you operate. Did you wait until a specific moment to make this request? This informs me about you and how you operate. Did you attach special conditions to your request? Did you formulate it like it's nothing, when in fact it is a big deal? Etc.

The Askers think there is no information in the request itself and its specific formulation, and just care about the 1 bit of information in the answer. They also believe that the request-answer is a stateless transaction, i.e. that nothing gets memorized, or changes the environment going forward.

The Guessers are the opposite, are very careful with what the information disclosed in the request itself can do to the environment, the people, and the relationship going forward.

"You could've just said no" is what Askers say when they want to say: please ignore all the information in my request.

Example:

You are a friend who often scratches/dings his car, has occasional accident, etc. and you ask me to loan you my car, which I saved a lot for, restored old model, etc.

I will say, NO.

But I also learned something about you, that besides being careless you are also not self-aware, so I will take that into consideration going forward.

Re: Are you an Asker or a Guesser? (2010)

#33

Post by chankstein38 »

ragingrobot wrote: post #28
timeagain wrote: post #6

The article discusses how agonizing it must be for a guesser when they have to say no to something. But something I have been dealing with recently is actually the reverse—the resentment a guesser feels when told “no”. Because in their mind, they have done the math and think they have correctly deduced they should receive a “yes”. Forthwrmore, since they don’t like saying “no”, they project this on their rejector and…

> Why would you presume you know what I want? I'm in the same boat as k__ above. Some have been indoctrinated into an "asking is wrong" culture. On my job, if you ask: * You're given a rude response. * You're treated like an idiot. * You're told you're wasting the other person's time. and many other less than ideal responses. Given these reactions enough, one can get tired of it (or angry, or ashamed depending on you…

In my first job as an adult, my boss did this to me all of the time. I'd go into his office to ask him something and he'd tear me apart. He'd ask deeper questions and just make me feel stupid for not knowing things.

It definitely changed how I approach that stuff now and, as I've expressed in another comment, for the worse in some people's eyes. I have gotten reprimanded for NOT asking questions a couple times in more recent years and I'm confused as hell which is the right way to go with it.

My approach now adays is, if it's something I know to some degree or think I can find an answer to it, timebox to a small amount of digging before asking someone. It's imperfect and I wish there was a better solution but the only real solution seems to be expecting other people to be more gracious with my asks and there's no real way to control another person's reactions so I just shy away from asking.

Re: Are you an Asker or a Guesser? (2010)

#34

Post by burnished »

0xfae wrote: post #10
dav_Oz wrote: post #7

While Japan is the most obvious "Guess culture" for Westerners. My favourite example of a "Guess culture" is that of Iranian taarof[0]: Another example occurs if a Western individual is not familiar with taarof in Iranian culture. When an Iranian individual is offering taarof, it is to first view it as a sincere offer with the hope of decline up to four or five times. If the individual offers more than five times, it…

As someone who grew up in America (typically ask culture) but also grew up in a very guess culture family, subculture and religion (Utah Mormons), this seems insane to me. I grew up guess culture so I understand it, but ask culture is so much clearer/concise/kinder in my opinion. Less likely to be misunderstood and build resentment, etc. The wikipedia article states the "Taarof is a ritual politeness that levels the…

The bit that I'm reflecting on is if you are used to it then you know you have an out - just offer/decline a few more times. As opposed to I guess an ask culture perspective where the presumed reason for the repeat asks is that they are trying to wear you down and your outs are basically capitulation or escalation.

I'm also reflecting on the times where I've changed my mind during repeat offers, basically because it gave me enough time to think.

No conclusions on your question, just ruminations from some one who wonders the same.

Re: Are you an Asker or a Guesser? (2010)

#35

Post by kens »

The idea of Ask and Guess cultures seems reasonable, if the Asker will accept a no. However, it's easy for Ask culture to slip into Ask, followed by Ask again, "but why not?", "but you should", "but you did that for someone else", and so forth.

Re: Are you an Asker or a Guesser? (2010)

#36

Post by SkyPuncher »

k__ wrote: post #20

I guess. I read docs, I read code, I read SO questions, I read forum posts, I read blog posts, I read chat histories, I read GitHub issues. And then, after I lost 1h-20h I ask someone. Why? When I started programming, people didn't help me. They were angry when I didn't know things. They laughed at me when I didn't know things. They explained things very badly. They didn't have time to explain things. They didn't kno…

Wow, this nails down my feelings as well.

I’ve found mentorship, especially code mentorship, to be extremely overrated. I seem to end up in two situations:

* the problem I’ve run across is so far out of my depth that I don’t really know how to explain it. If I did, I’d research what I’m trying to do. A mentor either doesn’t have the time for me or can only provide a surface level explanation.

* the problem is mostly within my skills, but I need to figure out a small component. Asking someone is going to annoy them for it being such a trivial piece.

Re: Are you an Asker or a Guesser? (2010)

#39

Post by corobo »

ics wrote: post #22
corobo wrote: post #11

I wonder if there's any correlation, causation, whatever, between the guesser segment of the population and socially disrupting mental disorders. Autism, ADHD, etc. Giving it a quick think with the people I know (given that I don't know the mental health status of people without diagnoses) it's an almost perfect split. A secondary wonder comes in due to the theory of mind deficit that can come with those disorders -…

Many variables indeed but it's an interesting thought to consider. In my experience friends and relatives with autism are hard askers and those with diagnosed ADHD/OCD/related are all guessers without exception.

Fair point I may have excessively grouped, admittedly my circles skew a bit ADHD heavy

Re: Are you an Asker or a Guesser? (2010)

#40

Post by willcipriano »

chankstein38 wrote: post #30
ycombinete wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is common throughout the Middle East. Along with things like sincerely fighting to pay for the bill when going out to eat with friends. It becomes part of the social game, and can be quite fun to take part in We move you start to understand the rules. But is confusing at hell if you’ve arrived from an Anglo culture.

Calling paying for a bill "quite fun to take part in" made me chuckle. I'd rather play the game where someone else ends up paying because they put that much thought into it. If I'm treating someone I'll happily pay but if I'm at a restaurant with a bunch of people and someone is making it their mission to pay for my meal, I'm not going to fight it!

I'd rather buy everyones meal than owe one to someone else.

Being paid for feels infantilizing to me. Often the person with the highest status pays, by accepting being paid for you are accepting your role beneath them.

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