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"Lighten up"

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Re: "Lighten up"

#31

Post by MattRogish »

Jun8 wrote: post #5

"What do you say to the guy who sits across from you when you dress up and makes a comment to everyone about it? "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" Yikes! What sort of a place was this, what sort of people was she working with? I've never seen/heard anything remotely like this. It is sort of hard to generalize from such morons to the whole tech field.

Yeah, this shocks me because I've never worked in an organization where that would be tolerated, and I don't tolerate it in my team either. But then again, I'd never really hire people that would think that's OK, so...

Since managers tend to hire folks like themselves, it's really a symptom of dysfunctional management and an organization.

Thankfully there are absolutely places where this insanity doesn't occur. I don't know how to find that out prior to working there, however. :(

Re: "Lighten up"

#33

Post by tptacek »

daenz wrote: post #22

Hang in there. The norms are always transitioning, so someone is always getting "the shaft" (hopefully that won't come across as sexist :) And unfortunately, when you can't change everyone's "natural" behavior, the next healthiest choice is to grow thicker skin. EDIT>> I'm not saying that it's ok she's treated like this, but you can't change everyones behavior. It takes lifetimes. In the meantime, if you want to have…

You're right. That is the healthiest approach for her. Which makes dealing with the bullshit that people fling at her for not having thicker skin all the more valuable. She could go along to get along, but hasn't, so everyone else won't have to go along with this crap too.

Your "hopefully that won't come across as sexist" bit, by the way, belittles the concern. It's not just her concern; it's my concern too, and you've belittled it. Thanks, internet message board guy.

Re: "Lighten up"

#34

Post by Tichy »

Outside of IT, nobody ever comments on low cut dresses?

I am glad I don't have to deal with things like the ones mentioned in the article, just wanted to chime in and say that most programming jobs suck anyway. So it seems possible to me that the expression of the suckiness apparently took on some sexist form, that is not to say that the male colleagues don't suffer through crap in the same job. It is definitely possible for male people to be in crappy jobs and having to look for something better.

So is the corollary of the article that all possible jobs for female programmers suck?

Re: "Lighten up"

#35

Post by MattRogish »

maukdaddy wrote: post #27
MattRogish wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it has to be immediate and public. That doesn't mean severe or disrespectful. Everyone has to do it, but it certainly should be set up from the top down that this is unacceptable and will stop. I take a page from the Results Only Work Environment: http://www.rowe.iambestbuy.com/sludge_busting.html

Immediate and public is certainly the best approach, although it might depend on the environment, who is present, etc. Sometimes a conversation in private might be better. You are exactly correct in regards to top down. A leader, manager, boss, etc. should immediately send the message that inappropriate behavior is not tolerated.

I broadly agree with you; this reply isn't for you inasmuch as it's to just continue the chain - my only caution about the "in private" is that it makes it an issue between the manager and the employee. The mgr can't be around for everything; it's up to the team to self police.

Sirens and other things cause public shaming when someone breaks the build; there needs to be a public and team-based shaming for inappropriate behavior.

Re: "Lighten up"

#36

Post by sgt »

tptacek wrote: post #30
[deleted] wrote: post #28

[deleted]

This comment makes you sound like you're 12 years old. The goal is not to get back at people. The onus isn't on her. She's the victim, not the problem.

He's actually got a point. She may be victimizing herself and blowing this way out of proportion. There are plenty of guys out there also taking "shit" from co-workers but biting the bullet and rather coming up with a witty response than shutting themselves in.

Re: "Lighten up"

#37

Post by bh42222 »

I can't seem to find a study which showed that while only %3 of men ever make such comments, women involved in our community experience this a steady stream of subtle harassment. And the sad fact is that this is due to the lopsided share of men to women.

If we had a 50/50 split some women would never hear such comments, some would hear then extremely rarely, while the percentage of men making them would stay the same.

And can we ever hope to get 100% of any large group anywhere, to never make occasionally offensive remarks? The crux here really is that this type of offensive remarks have only one target - women, and that combined with the lop-sided sex ratio results in harassment.

Re: "Lighten up"

#38

Post by alanh »

daenz wrote: post #22

Hang in there. The norms are always transitioning, so someone is always getting "the shaft" (hopefully that won't come across as sexist :) And unfortunately, when you can't change everyone's "natural" behavior, the next healthiest choice is to grow thicker skin. EDIT>> I'm not saying that it's ok she's treated like this, but you can't change everyones behavior. It takes lifetimes. In the meantime, if you want to have…

Really? Your sole contribution here is an earnest restatement of the dismissive line decried over and over in the linked piece? For shame.

Edit in reply: Exactly how are these not all the same: “Hang in there,” “lighten up,” “change your perspective”?

Re: "Lighten up"

#39

Post by crusso »

omgsean wrote: post #23
crusso wrote: post #13

@kcunning - How do you contrast your desire to have a perfectly professional relationship with everyone you work with vs a desire to enjoy an office environment where you can joke around and have fun? While I understand your answer may well be, "Leave the jokes at home, Mr. Colbert. I'm here to code and make a paycheck." I would be sad if my relationship with my coworkers couldn't handle, let alone thrive upon, humor…

If you don't know how to avoid crossing the line you shouldn't be joking around. The onus is on you, the joke maker, to have a basic understanding of your audience as well as your privileges in society.

Did you see the story yesterday about a teacher being suspended (possibly permanently) for reading Ender's Game to his students because a parent accused the book of being "pornographic"?

While I agree that you should be careful about knowing your audience and where the lines are, there are some people who are going to have all kinds of lines in unexpected places. Sometimes, those lines move. Last week, a wry "yo mamma" might have been an appropriate come-back to Jim. Today, you might really upset him with the same comment because his mother died the day before.

The only real solution with some folks is to never so much as crack a smile at them. They may take it the wrong way.

Re: "Lighten up"

#40

Post by daenz »

tptacek wrote: post #33
daenz wrote: post #22

Hang in there. The norms are always transitioning, so someone is always getting "the shaft" (hopefully that won't come across as sexist :) And unfortunately, when you can't change everyone's "natural" behavior, the next healthiest choice is to grow thicker skin. EDIT>> I'm not saying that it's ok she's treated like this, but you can't change everyones behavior. It takes lifetimes. In the meantime, if you want to have…

You're right. That is the healthiest approach for her. Which makes dealing with the bullshit that people fling at her for not having thicker skin all the more valuable. She could go along to get along, but hasn't, so everyone else won't have to go along with this crap too. Your "hopefully that won't come across as sexist" bit, by the way, belittles the concern. It's not just her concern; it's my concern too, and you'…

> Your "hopefully that won't come across as sexist" bit, by the way, belittles the concern. It's not just her concern; it's my concern too, and you've belittled it.

I'm sorry if you feel that way. Someone "getting the shaft" is a common phrase. When I typed it, I realized that it had obvious masculine connotations, so I thought I'd point that out with a smiley face. The rest of my response should make it more than obvious that I took her concern and health seriously.

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