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Stop Brogramming

hasmanyreasons.com

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31–36 of 36 posts

Re: Stop Brogramming

#31

Post by Cushman »

batista wrote: post #29
ArtB wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but what exactly is sexist about trying to get laid? Not trolling, or sarcastic. It honestly seemed like an event that tried to combine the things that a certain demographic of people like to do into one event. I don't see how different this is from a Sushi buffet-dubstep-LAN event. If it was a networking conference for high-powered female C*Os and they were advertising that the waiter's were all young buff me…

the issue is that the event effectively excluded women programmers- or at least made it clear that they weren't wanted. OK, and that is an issue because? Can't one just make an event with a SPECIFIC target audience in mind? Especially, if, hypocrisy aside, the audience was gonna be male populated anyway, even if a semi-naked Brad Pitt served drinks. Perhaps if the flyer boasted "hot chicks and buff dudes serving you…

One can host whatever event one likes. One can market it however one likes. Similarly, one's funders can choose to withdraw their sponsorship if they feel they don't wish to support one's politics, and one's community can castigate one for enforcing damaging messages.

Hooray for freedom!

Re: Stop Brogramming

#32

Post by cgoddard »

batista wrote: post #21

What exactly is sexism? Behaving as sexes DO exist, and, for example, men can like the look of certain females? Well, sexes DO exist, and men do like the look of certain females. To state otherwise would be hypocrisy. And it's not like liking women or wanting to go to a bar that has pretty waitresses (and vice versa for women) if somehow taking advantage of the other sex. No more than wanting to go to a concert is ta…

There are proper places for sexuality, objectification, etc. A professional / workplace environment isn't one of them. It makes people uncomfortable and can contribute to a hostile work environment. The fact is people don't have as much choice over their coworkers as their friends, and they can't easily avoid unwanted interactions as easily as they can in choosing their social circles.

As far as sexism goes when you make assumptions about your audience, you make anyone who doesn't fit those assumptions feel unwelcome. It doesn't mean you should never make assumptions, but always be aware who you are excluding and if you have a good reason for excluding them.

Re: Stop Brogramming

#33

Post by cgoddard »

kstenerud wrote: post #11
dfxm12 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. The social awkwardness of their joke kinda shows the divergent nature of the "brogrammer".

I actually know Avand personally, and his humor is often awkward, as is common in many geeks. I can see where he was trying to go with the joke (exactly where he said he was trying to go in his equally awkward apology), but once you trip up on a sensitive topic, people immediately arrange themselves to be maximally offended. Once this happens, anything short of a blood sacrifice is insufficient, and woe be to anyone…

Its fine to be less than perfect and to make mistakes, but if someone makes a mistake large and in public, they should apologize for it. Spending the least little amount of time talking to someone who was offended should be enough to clue in the clueless, and ensure a genuine apology.

An insincere apology shows that the person apologizing really cares less why anyone actually was offended, and is just as likely to say something equally offensive again.

Re: Stop Brogramming

#34

Post by batista »

cgoddard wrote: post #32
batista wrote: post #21

What exactly is sexism? Behaving as sexes DO exist, and, for example, men can like the look of certain females? Well, sexes DO exist, and men do like the look of certain females. To state otherwise would be hypocrisy. And it's not like liking women or wanting to go to a bar that has pretty waitresses (and vice versa for women) if somehow taking advantage of the other sex. No more than wanting to go to a concert is ta…

There are proper places for sexuality, objectification, etc. A professional / workplace environment isn't one of them. It makes people uncomfortable and can contribute to a hostile work environment. The fact is people don't have as much choice over their coworkers as their friends, and they can't easily avoid unwanted interactions as easily as they can in choosing their social circles. As far as sexism goes when you…

There are proper places for sexuality, objectification, etc. A professional / workplace environment isn't one of them. It makes people uncomfortable and can contribute to a hostile work environment.

Well, that might be a cultural thing though. We don't particularly care about such things in other parts of the world (that doesn't mean we run around naked in the workplace).

And actually neither did the US until like the nineties or so.

Re: Stop Brogramming

#35

Post by lwhi »

batista wrote: post #21

What exactly is sexism? Behaving as sexes DO exist, and, for example, men can like the look of certain females? Well, sexes DO exist, and men do like the look of certain females. To state otherwise would be hypocrisy. And it's not like liking women or wanting to go to a bar that has pretty waitresses (and vice versa for women) if somehow taking advantage of the other sex. No more than wanting to go to a concert is ta…

Imagine you were a developer who happened to be a woman. Then imagine that it's inferred you should be serving beer if you're hot enough.

The bro thing is a celebration of a certain cliched fantasy of what masculinity should be. It's a cheap shot.

Re: Stop Brogramming

#36

Post by kstenerud »

cgoddard wrote: post #33
kstenerud wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually know Avand personally, and his humor is often awkward, as is common in many geeks. I can see where he was trying to go with the joke (exactly where he said he was trying to go in his equally awkward apology), but once you trip up on a sensitive topic, people immediately arrange themselves to be maximally offended. Once this happens, anything short of a blood sacrifice is insufficient, and woe be to anyone…

Its fine to be less than perfect and to make mistakes, but if someone makes a mistake large and in public, they should apologize for it. Spending the least little amount of time talking to someone who was offended should be enough to clue in the clueless, and ensure a genuine apology. An insincere apology shows that the person apologizing really cares less why anyone actually was offended, and is just as likely to sa…

Once again, it comes down to a difference between what each person considers an appropriate apology. What you usually see (including in this case) is an apology, followed by people arguing over whether the apology was sufficient or not. "Sincerity" is gauged based on whether you think the apology is good enough. If not, the usual response is to say that the offender obviously didn't care enough and is being insincere.
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