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An Old Conjecture Falls, Making Spheres a Lot More Complicated

quantamagazine.org

31–40 of 83 posts

Re: An Old Conjecture Falls, Making Spheres a Lot More Complicated

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no thickness (or it’s zero if you like). The deformations have to be continuous mathematical functions, so punching a hole isn’t possible. The study is about the properties of (higher dimensional) shapes rather than concrete objects. It’s like asking what’s the thickness of a circle.

If it's zero I can make a doughnut from a ball without tearing.

No, you can't. If you'd like an analogy from 3D modeling to see why not:

Any polyhedral mesh has an integer called its "Euler characteristic", which is simply calculated by taking the number of vertices, subtracting the number of edges, and adding the number of faces. (V-E+F)

Obviously, smoothly deforming a surface by moving vertices around doesn't change its Euler characteristic. A bit less obviously, any sequence of local refinements to "patches" of the mesh can't change its Euler characteristic either. (For example, splitting one face into smaller regions that are still connected to their surroundings in the same way.) Anything that you might reasonably call a "smooth" transformation will keep the Euler characteristic unchanged. You can convince yourself of this by experimentation with whatever 3D modeling software you like.

But a spherical mesh has Euler characteristic 2, and a torus mesh has Euler characteristic 0. So no smooth deformation can transform one into the other.

The only way to change the Euler characteristic would be to change the mesh topology itself, which would mean there's at least one pair of faces that are connected by an edge in one mesh and not connected in the other, which means the mesh has been "torn" along that edge.

With a lot of math, you can extend this argument to arbitrary continuous surfaces, not just polygons. If two surfaces have different Euler characteristic, then you cannot find a bidirectional continuous mapping between them. Any such bijection must be discontinuous somewhere, which roughly means that arbitrarily close points are "torn apart" from each other.

Re: An Old Conjecture Falls, Making Spheres a Lot More Complicated

#33

The first sentence should have been the ball-is-equal-to-egg explanation with mention of topology. Before that I had no idea what they were talking about. P.s. I have to assume the rules forbid shapes with surfaces of zero thickness. Otherwise I can just smash a ball into an inner-tube. If the shapes have thickness mandated, what is it? Are the thickness of the surfaces a consideration when morphing from one shape to…

You don't actually have to assume anything. You could ask instead, or read some background.

Re: An Old Conjecture Falls, Making Spheres a Lot More Complicated

#34
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always wonder what a popular science/math magazine would look like if it were oriented towards hackers. In this I mean people who have little background in the field but also the type of person who is used to bluntness and knows to RTFM. I would subscribe to one. Journal articles are often opaque to people who aren't already in the field, and popular science falls too often into the storytelling trap seen here.

> I always wonder what a popular science/math magazine would look like if it were oriented towards hackers. In this I mean people who have little background in the field but also the type of person who is used to bluntness and knows to RTFM. Expensive.

I would pay $1 per article whose title & byline interested me if I could count on the quality matching this [0] …

… [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37171553

(This comment reads faster with tail recursion.)

Re: An Old Conjecture Falls, Making Spheres a Lot More Complicated

#36

The gossipy narrative style of the article is kind of jarring for an article on a topic like this. It took several paragraphs before it touched on the matter.

I always wonder what a popular science/math magazine would look like if it were oriented towards hackers. In this I mean people who have little background in the field but also the type of person who is used to bluntness and knows to RTFM. I would subscribe to one. Journal articles are often opaque to people who aren't already in the field, and popular science falls too often into the storytelling trap seen here.

> I always wonder what a popular science/math magazine would look like if it were oriented towards hackers.

ne supra crepidam

Re: An Old Conjecture Falls, Making Spheres a Lot More Complicated

#37

The first sentence should have been the ball-is-equal-to-egg explanation with mention of topology. Before that I had no idea what they were talking about. P.s. I have to assume the rules forbid shapes with surfaces of zero thickness. Otherwise I can just smash a ball into an inner-tube. If the shapes have thickness mandated, what is it? Are the thickness of the surfaces a consideration when morphing from one shape to…

Have you heard the quip that in physics a cow and a point are equivalent? This is because the physicist cares only about the motion of the thing.

In topology, a doughnut and a coffee mug are equivalent (a mug has exactly one hole, in the handle where your fingers grab). Because the mathematician doesn't care about how hard, thick, or breakable it is; they only care about how complex the shape is. So throw out thickness, size, elasticity, etc.

Re: An Old Conjecture Falls, Making Spheres a Lot More Complicated

#38

The gossipy narrative style of the article is kind of jarring for an article on a topic like this. It took several paragraphs before it touched on the matter.

I dunno about gossipy, but the narrative style is standard at Quanta. It's written for the subscriber who is reading for leisure, and wants a good story as well as some amount of technical depth, not for the HN reader who wants to quickly judge whether figuring this thing out is worth their time, and will abandon it if not.

Re: An Old Conjecture Falls, Making Spheres a Lot More Complicated

#39
post #3

I enjoy this way more pretending it's the prelude to a Philip K Dick or H P Lovecraft story - than trying to actually grasp the math :)

If you enjoy the intersection of H P Lovecraft and mathematics you may enjoy https://www.hulver.com/scoop/story/2009/1/15/182727/390

Looking beyond the Lovecraftian mysticism, this is actually pretty fascinating in and of itself. I'm not a true mathematician (only a lowly electrical engineer with some training and study in mathematics), but I would not have expected that equality to hold for complex values, let alone quaternions, etc.

Re: An Old Conjecture Falls, Making Spheres a Lot More Complicated

#40
post #14

what is this good for? please no knee-jerk 'this is pure mathematics, it doesn't need applicability' answers.

When I was working in the field it sure as heck wasn't because of practical applications. The mathematics involved is beautiful.
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