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Captain Zilog Crushed: The Story of the Z8000

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Re: Captain Zilog Crushed: The Story of the Z8000

#31
The F-16 back when I started my career at General Dynamics was slated to use implementations of Mil Std 1750A, with the Z8002 as an interim processor for the fighter's next generation computers (F-16C/D in the early/mid 80s). I wrote some of the Jovial runtime that was intended to be used for both processors. No idea what happened to that code since I left in 1984. The 1750A had a math coprocessor which made things a little easier than the Z8002.

Re: Captain Zilog Crushed: The Story of the Z8000

#32
post #14

Does anyone have the history for why number of pins was such an important consideration (not just for Zilog, Intel too)? Was it really that much more expensive to make a 64 pin package than a 40 pin one?

There are a number of things that overlap here: the number of layers on circuit boards was still quite limited if you wanted the board to be affordable (2 layer boards were (back then...) 5x as cheap as 4 layer boards and 4 layers boards were 5x as cheap as 6 layer ones). There is the cost of the package itself and there is the cost of all of the infra around packaging and testing the die, the surface area of the chip die goes up with the square of the sides but the area available for interconnects only goes up with a factor of 4 unless you want to stagger your connecting pad. But that would complicate wire bonding.

Chip packaging has come a very long way from the days when a 40 pin DIP was considered a large chip. Kens (righto.com) has a series of articles about classic chips that show what high density designs looked like in those days and you can clearly see how the limits of packaging play into the designs of the dies themselves.

A 64 pin package that would not occupy a very large amount of board area (this is well before SMD became commonplace) would use all kinds of tricks such as staggered legs (sometimes up to three rows) and really tiny traces to be able to keep the costs down.

This is a fascinating bit of tech history and the fact that the packaging kept pace with Moore's law is maybe not quite as impressive as what was happening on the inside of the package but it was a major achievement and an enabler in and off itself.

Re: Captain Zilog Crushed: The Story of the Z8000

#33
> This was even though Intel’s 8086 was, by many measures, a design that was markedly inferior to the Z8000.

I don't see this as true at all. The 8086 segment registers are fine-grained, so you can use the single 16 bit value in a single register as a "pointer" to memory as long as you're OK with your blocks being allocated in 16 byte chunks and don't try to do array indexing on the raw value. This doesn't match the C memory model well, but it's very usable and for years DOS software exploited this trick to get clean addressing across the full 1M memory space of the PC with near-zero overhead[1].

The Z8000 had two-register addresses[2] and you needed to carry those two full words around everywhere. It's equivalent to writing DOS software with the "Huge" memory model pervasively (something pretty much no performance-sensitive software did, historically), because that's all the CPU could support. It's a big, big loss.

And all you get back for your trouble is a bigger register set, which looks great in a ISA document but doesn't really make up for the terrible memory access design. Zilog spent their transistors on the wrong things.

[1] Not zero, because there are only two usable segment registers to hold these pointers, but then the architecture had only 4 true GPRs anyway.

[2] IIRC (and seemingly confirmed by a quick wikipedia check) not even linear ones! The "segment offset" wasn't packed next to the low address bits. So you can't even do natural math on arrays bigger 64kb.

Re: Captain Zilog Crushed: The Story of the Z8000

#34
> One key implementation decision was that the Z8000 would not make use of microcode. Microcode would have broken down the Z8000’s instructions into a series of simpler instructions, hidden from the outside world, which the processor would execute. Instead, all instructions would be ‘hard-wired’ into the logic of the CPU, a more challenging approach for the designer. Shima would later discuss how much more difficult the Z8000 was to create when compared to the Z80, and how it tested the limits of the tools that he had available:

“… there are so many instructions in Z8000 it is impossible to store all of test vector for debugging in the memory of test bench anymore. Also, MOS process was getting denser and denser and also the size of the defects in masks was getting smaller. That is it was not so easy to find the fully functional die.”

This seems like a remarkable engineering decision to go entirely without microcode. Are there any comparable examples post 1979?

Re: Captain Zilog Crushed: The Story of the Z8000

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The latest round of STM32G0 is about $1 in quoted price before you start haggling. TI is launching a $0.40 (!) ARM micro soon. A modern toolchain, an ALU that doesn't suck, and a ton of ecosystem support are genuine improvements over z80. It's just the new default in the same way that z80 was a default (though less so, I grant). And I say this as someone who still knows z80 opcodes from high school programming TI cal…

>TI is launching a $0.40 (!) ARM micro soon. [...] It's just the new default in the same way that z80 was a default. And yet many cheap electronic devices will continue to be built and sold with 4-bit microcontrollers because 32 bit is overkill for those use cases and $0.40 is too expensive when 4-bit dies cost $0.05 or even $0.01, and $0.35 in savings is huge in high enough volume. You won't see any new products dev…

100% agree that you can easily pay an engineer's salary with the economy of scale savings from using spartan parts. I was simply marveling at how cheap the fully-packaged, high-schooler-can-use-it, definitely-works-for-your-application default ARM has become :)

Re: Captain Zilog Crushed: The Story of the Z8000

#36
post #7

There was an earlier, and to my way of thinking, much better idea at Zilog than the Z8000. That was the Z280 (later christened the Z800) it was a 16 bit machine akin to the 8086 but with upward compatibility with the Z80 and a much nicer architecture. I believe that Godbout made and S-100 card with this processor at one time. I wanted one so badly and yet the 8088 and the IBM-PC steamrolled the industry because "big…

Ah, memory lane, I love you. The S100 was a great architecture, so incredibly versatile, every component was designed around a standard so solid that it lived for 20 years and likely there are still systems in industrial control in service today (though those would be pretty hard to keep running). Is anybody on HN aware of S100 systems used in production today?

Aside from the systems we use directly in maintaining other S-100 boxes? Yes!

There are many Dahlgren engraving systems running with S-100 control crates. The boards are mostly Solid State Music whitelabels, except for the actual tool driving boards. They don't break often, but we do sometimes get requests to fix them.

Other S-100 boxes still exist, mostly being used by small old companies who are, frankly, in the "old owner's kids are't going to take this over" death spiral. Whatever they're doing with S-100 still works for them, so they keep running it.

We've got customers running PDP-8s and PDP-11s controlling old CNC machines, so S-100 isn't the oldest thing we still service. I also know of a pile of 286s helping make some super cutting edge silicon...

Re: Captain Zilog Crushed: The Story of the Z8000

#37

I have so much moe for the various post-Z80 chips Zilog made that people think failed in the marketplace but are still around and perfectly viable for applications that don't need 32-bit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zilog_eZ80 But the thing is that you keep getting dragged kicking and screaming to ARM because even if it is boring it is capable, affordable and everywhere.

There's a reason you can still buy Z80s in DIP (and more modern) packages on Mouser, along with the better peripheral chips like the Zilog SCC. All in stock, all for reasonable (e.g. not Rochester "we know you have to have this and no one else does) prices.

Re: Captain Zilog Crushed: The Story of the Z8000

#38
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The latest round of STM32G0 is about $1 in quoted price before you start haggling. TI is launching a $0.40 (!) ARM micro soon. A modern toolchain, an ALU that doesn't suck, and a ton of ecosystem support are genuine improvements over z80. It's just the new default in the same way that z80 was a default (though less so, I grant). And I say this as someone who still knows z80 opcodes from high school programming TI cal…

Z80 does seem to be on borrowed time, but the real sea change is going to be displacing 8051

Fact. Its core is embedded in so many things.

Re: Captain Zilog Crushed: The Story of the Z8000

#39

> One key implementation decision was that the Z8000 would not make use of microcode. Microcode would have broken down the Z8000’s instructions into a series of simpler instructions, hidden from the outside world, which the processor would execute. Instead, all instructions would be ‘hard-wired’ into the logic of the CPU, a more challenging approach for the designer. Shima would later discuss how much more difficult…

[deleted]

Re: Captain Zilog Crushed: The Story of the Z8000

#40
post #14

Does anyone have the history for why number of pins was such an important consideration (not just for Zilog, Intel too)? Was it really that much more expensive to make a 64 pin package than a 40 pin one?

Packaging had been a limiting factor for a long time, e.g. the Intel 8008 has the weird multiplexed bus it has, and requires so much external logic, because Intel was largely "just" a memory chip company at the time and couldn't package bigger than 18 pin DIPs.

Prototype carriers were likely significantly more expensive for >40 pin DIPs, just due to the lower demand. The ceramic packages with a die well and glued or brazed lid are available as an off-the-shelf item for low run, prototype, or special chips, and that's what a lot of chips back then started off in, including the Z8000.

As other comments suggest, escape routing was also a secondary issue. Not a problem for "Texas cockroach" 64-pin DIPs, but PGAs and such.

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