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Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

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Re: Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

#31

Post by nonethewiser »

tick_tock_tick wrote: post #3

One thing I'm really struggling with for all these kind of issues is do we really want to create another legal system? That's basically what every organization is being pushed into at this rate. From Universities to chess Leagues they are assembling what amounts to their own judges, juries, and prosecutors. If someone is committing sexual assault why does their seem to be this avoidance of the existing legal system a…

This is literally the definition of social justice. I just wanted to emphasize because this the term has lost a lot of meaning since it’s used as a catchall (by both opponents and proponents).

Re: Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

#32

Post by spanktheuser »

tick_tock_tick wrote: post #3

One thing I'm really struggling with for all these kind of issues is do we really want to create another legal system? That's basically what every organization is being pushed into at this rate. From Universities to chess Leagues they are assembling what amounts to their own judges, juries, and prosecutors. If someone is committing sexual assault why does their seem to be this avoidance of the existing legal system a…

I’m curious why you feel the actions of a private group amount to a legal system. To me they seem quite different. In one the punishment amounts to expulsion from the group and damage to reputation. The actual legal system has more consequential punishment (confinement, monetary loss, permanent record as a felon & sexual predator) but also higher standards of evidence, procedure, defendants rights etc.

To me, the “amateur legal system” you identity is closer to a more formalized version of what a friend group might do when they decide to ostracize someone due to boorish, misogynist or similar behavior. Since the chess association size exceeds the Dunbar number a lightweight process is needed to ensure proper function.

Re: Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

#33

Post by sshine »

COGlory wrote: post #5

I'm confused what Lichess wanted here. One woman complained. USCF assigned her an escort. More women complained. USCF banned the guy. This sounds completely reasonable, unless the first woman provided proof, you can't just ban someone because of an allegation. But they took steps to ensure her safety at future events. What does Lichess want here? They say it's insufficient, but they never really say what should have…

> What does Lichess want here?

For women to be able to enjoy chess without fear of assault, and for chess clubs to raise the bar on protecting the physical integrity of their members.

> they never really say what should have been done

It’s for the individual club to decide, but I think the answer is uncontroversial and obvious: find out if their member assaulted another member and kick them out of the club permanently.

Re: Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

#34

Post by bravoetch »

tick_tock_tick wrote: post #3

One thing I'm really struggling with for all these kind of issues is do we really want to create another legal system? That's basically what every organization is being pushed into at this rate. From Universities to chess Leagues they are assembling what amounts to their own judges, juries, and prosecutors. If someone is committing sexual assault why does their seem to be this avoidance of the existing legal system a…

Yes, if you sexually assault a colleague at work there are consequences like losing your job and that's a feature not a bug.

Re: Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

#35

Post by nonethewiser »

ianburrell wrote: post #25
tick_tock_tick wrote: post #3

One thing I'm really struggling with for all these kind of issues is do we really want to create another legal system? That's basically what every organization is being pushed into at this rate. From Universities to chess Leagues they are assembling what amounts to their own judges, juries, and prosecutors. If someone is committing sexual assault why does their seem to be this avoidance of the existing legal system a…

The legal system has a much higher bar to put people in prison for crimes. Organizations have a much lower bar for deciding not to associate with people. Their goal is to protect their members. Also, there are lots of things that are problematic but not crimes. "Sexual misconduct" could mean sexual harassment, which isn't a crime but shouldn't be allowed in organization.

But Lichess has neither the means nor interest in uncovering the truth. So why active as a judge?

Re: Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

#36

Post by jasonlotito »

lettergram wrote: post #14
duxup wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally the existing legal system is a very difficult path. Having said that I do agree with you (and thus my other comment) that these informal efforts by people who understandably are not qualified to deal with these things, are a mess too, and I'm not at all sure how they could possibly get it right often enough. US Universities in their effort to make the path less difficult have demonstrated that just pressing…

> Generally the existing legal system is a very difficult path And for good reason, the current legal system assumes innocent until proven guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt (for criminal cases). Civil cases have a lower burden of proof. These protections are there for a reason. Everyone has likely been accused of things they didn’t do. We shouldn’t assume anyone’s word without a decent amount of certainty. sexual “mi…

> Everyone has likely been accused of things they didn’t do.

To this degree? No. This is not likely.

> We shouldn’t assume anyone’s word without a decent amount of certainty.

Several claims from individuals with corroborating evidence in this case.

> most people making the accusations are doing so long-after the fact, often have outside motivation for making claims

Citation needed. I need evidence that most people making accusations are doing so "long after the fact" AND have motives outside the offending incident to do so.

On a side note: Codes of Conduct and Guidelines have existed long before the modern era. Private entities are free to handle these however they want, and suggesting they leave everything to the courts is a new and unique perspective that needs more backing to suggest it would be a better system.

Re: Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

#37

Post by gameman144 »

glenda wrote: post #10
tick_tock_tick wrote: post #3

One thing I'm really struggling with for all these kind of issues is do we really want to create another legal system? That's basically what every organization is being pushed into at this rate. From Universities to chess Leagues they are assembling what amounts to their own judges, juries, and prosecutors. If someone is committing sexual assault why does their seem to be this avoidance of the existing legal system a…

I don't believe anyone wants to create a new legal system, but the reality is the vast majority of sexual assault cases aren't resolved in court due to existing social issues. These "judges, jurries and prosecutors" are just people who don't want to associate with potentially dangerous people regardless of the legal outcome. Beyond legal consequences to crime there have always been social consequences too - I think t…

> These "judges, jurries and prosecutors" are just people who don't want to associate with potentially dangerous people regardless of the legal outcome.

This is true, but also has excused discrimination in the past (e.g. white flight), and can very easily lead to the tarring and feathering of innocent people.

At the individual level, not associating with potentially dangerous people is fine and smart. When large swaths of people avoid the same potentially dangerous people, though, the "potentially" part really does merit a bit more weight.

Re: Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

#38

Post by ipython »

tick_tock_tick wrote: post #3

One thing I'm really struggling with for all these kind of issues is do we really want to create another legal system? That's basically what every organization is being pushed into at this rate. From Universities to chess Leagues they are assembling what amounts to their own judges, juries, and prosecutors. If someone is committing sexual assault why does their seem to be this avoidance of the existing legal system a…

The legal system is exorbitantly expensive. I had a neighbor sue me over a land dispute (yes, they’re that petty). My lawyers informed me that I was looking at $80-200k in legal bills to take even this little thing to trial.

It doesn’t surprise me that organizations actively try to avoid it.

Re: Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

#39

Post by tptacek »

tick_tock_tick wrote: post #3

One thing I'm really struggling with for all these kind of issues is do we really want to create another legal system? That's basically what every organization is being pushed into at this rate. From Universities to chess Leagues they are assembling what amounts to their own judges, juries, and prosecutors. If someone is committing sexual assault why does their seem to be this avoidance of the existing legal system a…

This is a little like suggesting an HN ban should require formal due process. These are private organizations, and everybody involved here is exercising their rights of free association. Lichess can ice out other organizations for all sorts of reasons, moral, legal, commercial, and aesthetic. You in turn can respond to their actions by choosing how you'll associate with Lichess.
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