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Banks hit with millions in fines for using Signal and WhatsApp

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Re: Banks hit with millions in fines for using Signal and WhatsApp

#31
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK you are allowed to use any channel as long as you preserve records of the conversation. However, meeting the standards for preservation is quite difficult, which is why employees of financial institutions are generally told not to communicate outside person-to-person, or channels vetted by their company (and lawyers thereof).

Such a waste of time trying intently to regulate and control communication. People will just get a second private device that is not managed by the organization, and if there is a mutually beneficial advantage to doing so, the other party will do the same as well. This has been going on forever, I remember when they kicked up a huge fuss when they found out that people were doing direct pin-to-pin messages on the bla…

> Such a waste of time trying intently to regulate and control communication.

It's not an overall waste of time, because the goal is to reduce the enormous wastes caused by fraud, crime, and other malfeasance.

I know somebody who worked at a bank. The bank had a mandatory vacation policy: you had to be 100% gone for at least two solid weeks every year. When outsiders heard about this, they were often indignant. Who is the company to tell me how I spend my vacation? I know best when I need to rest. Why are they trying to regulate and control so much?

But the policy was about preventing crime. There are kinds of fraud where one person can keep it going a long time if they're around to fiddle things manually. But a couple of weeks of absence, plus the cross-training that goes with it, can keep those kinds of frauds from ever happening. And when they do happen, they stay much smaller.

As an example of why fighting fraud is vital to a bank, you could look at the failure of Barings Bank. One guy was able to fiddle the accounts to hide his losses, gaining a reputation as a trading genius. He started with a little deception, and it spiraled out of control over the years, eventually destroying a bank that had survived more than two centuries.

When compared with the destruction of the bank, making sure that supervisors can see what an employee is getting up to is a pretty small waste in comparison.

Re: Banks hit with millions in fines for using Signal and WhatsApp

#32

So long as the fine is affordable, they will keep using it. Folks in the Finance industry using these apps are doing so for a reason.

I think the record is pretty good for banks switching behaviour after being fined for a specific failing. They do know that if they get caught doing the exact same thing again, the punishment will be more costly.

It's far cheaper (and more deniable) to find a slightly different way round the regulations, see if/when you get fined for that, then move on to something else again...

Re: Banks hit with millions in fines for using Signal and WhatsApp

#33
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK you are allowed to use any channel as long as you preserve records of the conversation. However, meeting the standards for preservation is quite difficult, which is why employees of financial institutions are generally told not to communicate outside person-to-person, or channels vetted by their company (and lawyers thereof).

Such a waste of time trying intently to regulate and control communication. People will just get a second private device that is not managed by the organization, and if there is a mutually beneficial advantage to doing so, the other party will do the same as well. This has been going on forever, I remember when they kicked up a huge fuss when they found out that people were doing direct pin-to-pin messages on the bla…

> Such a waste of time trying intently to regulate and control communication.

Then attempting to enforce antitrust laws is likewise a waste of time.

Re: Banks hit with millions in fines for using Signal and WhatsApp

#34
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK you are allowed to use any channel as long as you preserve records of the conversation. However, meeting the standards for preservation is quite difficult, which is why employees of financial institutions are generally told not to communicate outside person-to-person, or channels vetted by their company (and lawyers thereof).

It's a bit weird that even though they can communicate person-to-person, where records won't be kept, they are supposed to keep records of electronic communication.

Well, it's incredibly hard to scale fraud only through person-to-person communications. It's not impossible, but think about the scale that online communication would allow.

Re: Banks hit with millions in fines for using Signal and WhatsApp

#35
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit weird that even though they can communicate person-to-person, where records won't be kept, they are supposed to keep records of electronic communication.

Not really. How on earth could that ever be implemented?

In person conversations could be required to be recorded with a portable voice recording device (like a tape deck or phone). Same for phone calls. The regulatory authorities exempt those communications for now, but it isn't clear that there is any kind of consistent standard / reasoning.

Re: Banks hit with millions in fines for using Signal and WhatsApp

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't speak for the entire Europe obviously, usage varies from country to country, but where I've been it's pretty well entrenched for bot social and business.

WhatsApp is widely used by UK ministers to communicate with potential donors, lobbyists and other politicians. I don't know why it's allowed; in-person meetings are supposed to have a civil servant present and taking notes. WhatsApp gets them off the FOI hook.

Case in point: The ongoing Covid-19 inquiry request for access to government WhatsApp messages: https://www.ft.com/content/208263bf-b6bb-4ea6-8e6b-ee2e522ac...

Re: Banks hit with millions in fines for using Signal and WhatsApp

#37
post #2

Are US bank employees prohibited from discussing financial matters using anything but official channels (email, paper?) per se OR is this about using other channels and failing to preserve records of the conversations ?

We're in a time where these tools have replaced face to face conversations -- and those previous conversations never required record keeping.

Re: Banks hit with millions in fines for using Signal and WhatsApp

#38
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK you are allowed to use any channel as long as you preserve records of the conversation. However, meeting the standards for preservation is quite difficult, which is why employees of financial institutions are generally told not to communicate outside person-to-person, or channels vetted by their company (and lawyers thereof).

It's a bit weird that even though they can communicate person-to-person, where records won't be kept, they are supposed to keep records of electronic communication.

The weird step for me is the expansion of regulatory authority from published memos, to all written communication like texts and chats. I get it and don't really object to the end result, but it seems like the law should be updated to match what society desires to be regulated, rather than just relying on a generous interpretation by regulators.

Re: Banks hit with millions in fines for using Signal and WhatsApp

#39
Sounds like this is less about Signal/WA and more about them not archiving methods.

They could in theory run _e.g._ `sigtop` every couple of months and encrypt it (e.g. age or veracrypt).

It's a complicated workflow but I imagine they have a pipeline for emails that isnt much less complicated, but also isnt E2EE.

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