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TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

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Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#31
post #14

Sort of incredible that Germany is getting decade old technology for this much investment.

Silicium chips and transistors are used for so much more things than cutting-edge computing. Germany is not really in that business (yet) so this is more a move to get their current supply-chain for automotive, machinery, etc. more independent.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#32
post #14

Sort of incredible that Germany is getting decade old technology for this much investment.

A lot of the 'chip shortage' those past years was not for the cutting-edge stuff, but for automotive/embedded devices

Not everything needs the 5nm cutting edge, and to be fair calling

> 300mm (12-inch) wafers on TSMC’s 28/22 nanometer planar CMOS and 16/12 nanometer FinFET process technology,

old is a bit unfair

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#33
post #14

Sort of incredible that Germany is getting decade old technology for this much investment.

They won't use that technology to produce mobile phones or GPUs. There are plenty of application were structure size, performance and/or power draw doesn't really matter. E.g. Automotive / Industrial applications

To be pedantic, I think it does matter there, but the cost / benefit tradeoff is in favor of the 10 year old processes.

And it can vary too, mass produced / generic chips can be more cost efficient if they can make more of them on a single wafer.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#34
post #29

Just out of curiosity how hard would it be to re-fit such a foundary to modern <5nm cpu fabs with ASML/Zeiss directly around the corner.

There is a YouTube channel called asianometry which did some videos about UV lithography. Form what I remember the processes vary significantly in each generation so that there probably is little to no real overlap.

I'm no expert though so might be off by a mile here.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#35
post #14

Sort of incredible that Germany is getting decade old technology for this much investment.

They won't use that technology to produce mobile phones or GPUs. There are plenty of application were structure size, performance and/or power draw doesn't really matter. E.g. Automotive / Industrial applications

That's exactly the issue, isn't it?

The Chips Act was marketed as an attempt to bring back "cutting-edge chips" to Europe, and to promote research and innovation. In the end it turns out to just be a huge government subsidy for a bog-standard fab which is at least a decade behind what TSMC is building in Taiwan.

Great for automotive companies who want to strengthen their supply lines, but pretty pointless when it comes to doing what it was actually supposed to do. Europe already has plenty of fabs like these which did not require billion-euro handouts.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#36

Great to see they coming to Germany. If Tesla could build a car factory here from scratch, I'm sure that they can build chips too. Curious why they've chosen Dresden though. Anybody knows how much the government is willing to invest? Missing some tangible figures.

Dresden has been a semimanufactoring hub in Eastern Germany for quite some time. I believe this started in GDR times and continued (at massively reduced capacity) after the reunification. Intel, AMD, Infineon and others operate (or plan to build) factories in Dresend (or saxony in general) and its reasonable to assume that experienced workers and local suppliers make the area a preffered location. Given Eastern Germa…

Intel will settle in Magdeburg. The "AMD" Fab in Dresden belongs to GlobalFoundries (AMD sold its last GlobalFoundries shares in 2012).

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#37

Great to see they coming to Germany. If Tesla could build a car factory here from scratch, I'm sure that they can build chips too. Curious why they've chosen Dresden though. Anybody knows how much the government is willing to invest? Missing some tangible figures.

Dresden has a really good university when it comes to computer engineering, too. Plus it realtively cheap compared to other regions in Germany (like Munich)

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#38
post #14

Sort of incredible that Germany is getting decade old technology for this much investment.

The biggest concern for Germany is chip supply for the industry, especially the automotive sector, machinery, military and so on. 28/22 and 16/12 chips are still going to dominate in that sector for a long time.

that's if we don't expect Germany to become an AI powerhouse, where GPUs are useful. Apparently this does not seem to be a priority.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#39
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They won't use that technology to produce mobile phones or GPUs. There are plenty of application were structure size, performance and/or power draw doesn't really matter. E.g. Automotive / Industrial applications

That's exactly the issue, isn't it? The Chips Act was marketed as an attempt to bring back "cutting-edge chips" to Europe, and to promote research and innovation. In the end it turns out to just be a huge government subsidy for a bog-standard fab which is at least a decade behind what TSMC is building in Taiwan. Great for automotive companies who want to strengthen their supply lines, but pretty pointless when it com…

> Great for automotive companies who want to strengthen their supply lines

That's great news for Germany then.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#40
post #3

Wonder if the Taiwanese govt at some point will step in and block these onshoring measures as a matter of national security. If countries are less reliant on manufacturing within Taiwan, its one less reason to stand up to Beijing's one China principle.

More like the opposite, by making ties with other countries, Taiwan will win some geopolitical points. TSMC alone has no control over if the Chinese government will commit such aggression, if they would do their whole company strategy based on fearing the CCP, there's no way they can be successful.

I think this is true. China is working really hard to get it's domestic semiconducter industry up to speed.

They are willing to burn a lot of money and time to reach their overall political goal of annexing Taiwan even if it takes a very very long time.

Ultimately it's unrealistic to assume that a country of 1.4 Billion people can not catch up eventually espescially if they would otherwise have to rely on a global competitor (US) or a military target which factories are rigged to blow (Taiwan).

The best thing Taiwan can do (once their semiconductor lead is no more) is to make themselves into a strategic ally located on Chinas doorstep.

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