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Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

arstechnica.com

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Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#31

Post by MBCook »

asynchronous wrote: post #26
bryanlarsen wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EPA estimate is for 55mph driving in optimal conditions, and is fairly accurate in my experience. It's very easy to exceed EPA estimates in the city. The optimal speed to drive a Tesla is about 15mph. At that speed a Tesla will exceed EPA range by about 20%.

I saw a YouTube video where some guys “maximalised” the range to see how far they could go on one charge, and by reducing weight and disabling cabin AC and going under 25 mph were able to travel I think over 600 miles. Good to know in a pinch.

Honestly the cabin AC makes very little difference.

You’re right though, that’s how you set world records. If you drive an EV at like 10 mph you could go a pretty insane distance. But no normal person would ever do that.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#32

Post by CameronNemo »

MBCook wrote: post #29
jackmott42 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla display that but also displays highly accurate estimates of any trip you plan. To me the real party at fault with EV range in the USA is the EPA, which combines city and highway range in a single number, which inflates the highway number. Every EV that is sold advertises this inflated EPA number. Nobody cares about city range, just publish highway range, or both, like we do with gas cars.

There are two tests you can run for the EPA. What I’ve heard is one favors EVs more and only Tesla uses those numbers for their EVs. I agree the test needs a redesign. No one drives 55, and speed has a big impact on EVs due to wind resistance.

Pretty sad that we can't just drive 55 on highways. Not even trucks that are towing will drive 55 always.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#33

Post by heattemp99 »

The biggest fail IMO is that if you use this range constantly, you'll basically degrade the battery heavily. These top ranges require a full 100% charge (bad for the battery) and a pretty low level of discharge (bad for any weak cells in the pack). So yes in a special case you have that range. Using it often will cause faster battery pack degradation.

My Chevy Volt has a 15kwh pack, and only lets you use 10kwh. The bottom 2 and the top 2 are never accessible. Which means the batteries are never depleted, and never fully charged. I bought it knowing I have 10kwh to use around town or on trips (afterward the gas engine turns on). I use those 10kwh every single day, for all 177k miles of the cars life so far. I still get the same 10.3kwh I got on day one I made my purchase decision based on.

Tesla should advertise their packs the same way, explaining that the outlier 10kw are for emergencies too.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#35

Post by rubyn00bie »

Analemma_ wrote: post #14

Tesla's display shows the EPA range. While this is probably a bad idea and that's why no other manufacturer does it, "nobody else does it" is nothing but an informal standard and it seems a bit awkward to claim the approved government standard, in use at government agencies, is so obviously wrong that it constitutes fraud.

This take is a bit weird to me. It’s like saying because other companies aren’t lying that Tesla should be excused from lying. It sounds like Tesla has been displaying this number in car regardless of the accuracy; and in my opinion leaned into lying. From the article:

> The complaint cited testing that found three Tesla models fell short of their advertised ranges by an average of 26 percent. In addition to alleging false advertising, the lawsuit said that range estimates provided by Tesla vehicles during car trips fail to account for temperature and other factors that reduce range.

I’ve heard people on HN talk about this saying there are two separate values the car shows you and one is wildly and consistently wrong. The one that’s wrong, by the sounds of it aligns with their marketing materials.

I won’t buy a Tesla, but to me, their advantage is range. Right now their only competitors in range are more expensive (though quite a bit nicer imho). I imagine if I had bought a Tesla and the range wasn’t as good as it should be, I would be quite pissed…

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#36

Post by yurishimo »

CameronNemo wrote: post #32
MBCook wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two tests you can run for the EPA. What I’ve heard is one favors EVs more and only Tesla uses those numbers for their EVs. I agree the test needs a redesign. No one drives 55, and speed has a big impact on EVs due to wind resistance.

Pretty sad that we can't just drive 55 on highways. Not even trucks that are towing will drive 55 always.

Why do people need to drive slow? Sometimes you gotta get somewhere. If they are willing to pay the premium to driver faster and follow the law while doing so, what’s the harm?

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#37

Post by yreg »

heattemp99 wrote: post #33

The biggest fail IMO is that if you use this range constantly, you'll basically degrade the battery heavily. These top ranges require a full 100% charge (bad for the battery) and a pretty low level of discharge (bad for any weak cells in the pack). So yes in a special case you have that range. Using it often will cause faster battery pack degradation. My Chevy Volt has a 15kwh pack, and only lets you use 10kwh. The b…

Full 100% charge is good for the LFP batteries which have been standard in Model 3 and Model Y since 2021.

Indeed, Tesla recommends to charge to 100% at least once per week.

https://insideevs.com/news/557527/tesla-model3-lfp-charging-...

edit: read response below

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#39

Post by dragontamer »

constantcrying wrote: post #7
dragontamer wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/07/tesla-exaggerate... Hypothetical Porsche didn't setup customer service teams to lie to customers on a mass-scale when the complaints came in though. We have evidence of Tesla service-cancellation teams. We have evidence of Tesla's software purposefully being inaccurate when above 50% charge, and then slowly becoming more accurate when reaching 50% or less charge. This is li…

>lie to customers Is that alleged? I saw only the support telling customers that this is expected. "There is nothing wrong with your car, don't bother comming. It is expected that sometimes your car gets galf the range." is not a lie at all. It seems absolutely truthful and in fact the total opposite of exaggerating the range of the car. >We have evidence of Tesla service-cancellation teams. We have evidence of Tesla…

> Is that alleged?

The fuel-meter is absolutely lying to you at 50%+. And the customer-service reps know it, and they even have trained responses over this conspiracy.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#40

Post by darth_avocado »

constantcrying wrote: post #3

Seems like a pretty weak claim to be honest. I think it is pretty obvious that maximum range refers to maxium range under ideal conditions and that using more eletronics in the car reduces the range. Porsche isn't lying about their max speed either, just because you can't reach it with 300kg of load and bad weather.

I think it’s a disingenuous to use this argument. Even if you drive at 25mph on a flat road on a day with moderate temperatures and no wind, Tesla’s range drops quite a lot more than a mile for every mile driven. Like yeah, if you’re using air conditioning and driving at 70 mph, it makes sense your range will drop more. The problem is that they’re pretending under ideal conditions, you can achieve that max range, but ideal conditions would literally require you to turn its computer off, which would not be possible to do as a consumer.
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