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It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

fredandrandall.com

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Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#31

Post by mmorett »

georgemcbay wrote: post #19

A big issue in modern hiring, IMO, is the combination of diverging specialized platforms and languages combined with overemphasis on keyword-hiring. When I first got into the industry you had: --- * old fogey LISP programmers * old fogey FORTRAN programmers * old fogey COBOL programmers * Assembly programmers * C/Win programmers * C/Unix programmers * C/Mac programmers * some people on the cutting edge looking at thi…

Add node.js, MongoDB, backbone.js, Redis, neo4j, coffeescript, html5, CSS3, python, django, zend, spring, hibernate, web services, etc.

They want to hire perfection, but are themselves imperfect.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#32

Post by mechanical_fish »

kenjackson wrote: post #12
RandallBrown wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, that's pretty interesting. I had decent luck with just applying online, but with the couple companies where I got a referral, things moved much faster. I've always thought that the software industry is one of the few things you can get into without having a really good network (although it definitely helps).

I have a good blog story if someone wants to write it: Create a fictional rockstar resume(s). Not too over the top, but someone clearly a cut above the rest. And submit to various companies online. Report on which ones actually query back with interest.

What is this experiment going to prove? That it's not too difficult to "create a fictional rockstar resume, not too over the top?" This is true. That submitting such a resume to various webforms across the internet won't glean many responses? This is also true. But where's the surprise? The cold-dropped resumes are useless because they are so easily faked.

A network of independent, apparently competent former co-workers who can vouch for you is difficult to fake. Failing that, the ability to bring it – to stand up in a room, armed with nothing but a whiteboard marker and a grin, and convince people that you're knowledgeable, wise, serious and energetic – is also difficult to fake, not to mention a really valuable skill.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#33

Post by georgieporgie »

A few years ago, I applied to a senior Windows dev position. As I recall, they needed someone primarily to port existing software. One of the first interview questions was about how I would optimize shell sort for some particular edge case. The interviewer did not appear to have any papers with her that contained shell sort. I don't know if she thought I would remember it (last time I implemented it was high school), or what.

In months of sporadic interviewing, I don't recall being asked a single question relevant to Windows development, engineering strategies, how I comment my checkins, or any of a million other things which seem much more vital to me. Every interview centered on puzzles and algorithms. Every job listing was for Windows/C++ with various platform-specific technology requirements that I fit.

Personally, I think a lot of employers just like to have perpetual job openings. It makes the company look good. Also, I think that a very, very large percentage of the "screening" is really just to provide justification to the subconscious decision that was made within moments. There's a reason that Silicon Valley is almost entirely white, male, and under 40, and it has nothing to do with technical aptitude.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#34

Post by danbmil99 »

I think Google set technical recruiting back a few decades. Their process is and always has been ridiculous, but because they are so successful, everyone is copying it.

I propose that Google is successful in spite of their vaunted hiring process, not because of it.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#35

Post by mwd_ »

georgemcbay wrote: post #19

A big issue in modern hiring, IMO, is the combination of diverging specialized platforms and languages combined with overemphasis on keyword-hiring. When I first got into the industry you had: --- * old fogey LISP programmers * old fogey FORTRAN programmers * old fogey COBOL programmers * Assembly programmers * C/Win programmers * C/Unix programmers * C/Mac programmers * some people on the cutting edge looking at thi…

Just the other day I saw a job requiring "3+ years iPad experience".

I understand the appeal of hiring somebody who needs minimal training, but they may still not be the best pick. When it comes to a long-term position, it is better to hire the great developer who takes two weeks to get up to speed with some language or technology than it is to hire the mediocre developer who happens to have used Node.js or whatever.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#37

Post by grannyg00se »

georgieporgie wrote: post #33

A few years ago, I applied to a senior Windows dev position. As I recall, they needed someone primarily to port existing software. One of the first interview questions was about how I would optimize shell sort for some particular edge case. The interviewer did not appear to have any papers with her that contained shell sort. I don't know if she thought I would remember it (last time I implemented it was high school),…

"There's a reason that Silicon Valley is almost entirely white, male, and under 40, and it has nothing to do with technical aptitude."

Ouch....That's a very damning statement. I'm not in a position to comment on the truth of it - all I can say is that I hope you're wrong.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#38

Post by lekus »

athst wrote: post #29

I like the point about how randomness seems to be such a big part of the process. If you're not using connections and are applying through normal channels, to me it seems like there is so much that can go wrong that isn't related to your ability to do the job. Maybe the recruiter had a bunch of email that day and missed the application. Maybe the person who screened your email didn't like the font or design of your r…

It will never improve until there is a "real" shortage in the market.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#39

Post by randomdata »

RandallBrown wrote: post #6
th0ma5 wrote: post #4

My current reading of the job market around me, and I may well be just in a funky mood so forgive me, is that all the IT job listings seem to itemize all the ways you won't be allowed to be creative, and also list a bunch of surprisingly general, and contradictory, experience requirements. They promote any kind of actual CS knowledge as being a masters degree skill only needing 10 years in direct experience in a 10 y…

I used to passive-agressively mention this to our HR department and my old job all the time. The basic "Software Engineer" posting has "At least 3 years of desktop or server software development" as a requirement. I always liked to point out that I (and everyone else they hired out of college) wasn't qualified for the jobs we were doing. They're in Michigan, so finding development talent is a little bit harder so I d…

> they're discouraging college students from applying by having pointless job requirements that don't actually matter.

From the opposite end of the spectrum, I'm always amazed at the jobs that slap on the computer science degree requirement. My small rural municipal government was recently looking for a web developer to work on their CMS. A CS degree was a requirement for the job, despite there being very little pure CS work to being with (it is your standard db-driven website).

I don't know, It struck me as odd. Why would this small government, in a low income area - average single income was $25K/year in a report a few years ago - restrict their search to people who are said to be in high demand and probably being courted by places like Google with interesting CS problems that they trained many years to work on? And as a taxpayer, why would I want to pay Google prices? It is a useful resource, but not $100K/year useful.

After several months they finally did find someone for the role. Though, I cannot say if they finally relaxed their CS requirement or not.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#40

Post by eshvk »

georgieporgie wrote: post #33

A few years ago, I applied to a senior Windows dev position. As I recall, they needed someone primarily to port existing software. One of the first interview questions was about how I would optimize shell sort for some particular edge case. The interviewer did not appear to have any papers with her that contained shell sort. I don't know if she thought I would remember it (last time I implemented it was high school),…

While, I'd like to agree with most of what you said. At least one of the parameters in the last statement you made can be statistically invalidated: Have you not seen the multitude of brown men in programming?
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