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Texas A&M suspended professor accused of criticizing Lt. Gov. Patrick in lecture

texastribune.org

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Re: Texas A&M suspended professor accused of criticizing Lt. Gov. Patrick in lecture

#31

Post by nverno »

kevingadd wrote: post #21
pityJuke wrote: post #14

As Nilay Patel from the Verge put it [1] >Your regular reminder that the biggest threat to free speech is the government. > Complaining about social platforms moderating content according to their whims is just how politicians distract you from how fast they’ve all gotten sick of the First Amendment. This story is outrageous — no one will even say what this professor allegedly said that was so offensive! [1]: https:/…

Is that really the right takeaway here? Do you think a private university based in Texas wouldn't have done the same thing?

Probably not. The Texas A&M chancellor is elected by the board of regents, selected by the Governor of Texas. This is true for many (all?) state systems (eg. the board of governors, appointed by the state politicians, picks the UNC head chancellor). So, that position is always under political pressure. This is not true at privates.

Re: Texas A&M suspended professor accused of criticizing Lt. Gov. Patrick in lecture

#32

Post by bbor »

Regnore wrote: post #5

What are the laws around the government punishing government employees for criticizing the government? I'm not an expert but it doesn't really seem like a first amendment issue although I think most would agree that the government shouldn't be punishing its own employees for conduct like this.

This is literally the definition of a first amendment issue, in my eyes. Should the president be able to ban anyone who works for any company that has any government contracts from making any critical statements about his administration? This isn’t some intern in the office of the politician she (seemingly lightly) criticized, this is a tenured professor.

Besides, IMO tenured professors are the very front line of free speech, perhaps right behind journalists - for the system to function at all (/continue limping along), tenured professors should NEVER be afraid of criticizing the government. At all. In any way.

Re: Texas A&M suspended professor accused of criticizing Lt. Gov. Patrick in lecture

#33

Post by DoneWithAllThat »

Animats wrote: post #26

Crackdowns on free speech are increasing worldwide. Afghanistan, Russia, China, Hong Kong, Florida, Texas... Israel just reached the using fire hoses on protestors level.[1] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/25/world/middleeast/israel-j...

Oh come on, stop with the hyperbole. Two of those things are nothing even close to the others.

Re: Texas A&M suspended professor accused of criticizing Lt. Gov. Patrick in lecture

#34

Post by mikeyouse »

It's worth knowing more details than the headline here:

1. Professor Joy Alonzo, who's an expert in Opiod harm-reduction gave a talk where according to all accounts, she mildly critiqued the Lt. Governor and state's preferences for punitive approaches for drug control and that they are considered Federal non-reporters on Opioid stats since they don't collect the data required.

2. Dawn Buckingham, the TX Land Commissioner has a daughter who was in the audience of the talk. (presumably) The daughter texts her mom, telling her that the lecture disparaged the Lt. Gov.

3. Buckingham immediately texts the Lt. Governor that Alonzo had critiqued him - the Lt. Gov then called the Chancellor of Texas A&M where Professor Alonzo is employed.

4. Chancellor texts, literal hours after the lecture was finished, that "Joy Alonzo has been placed on administrative leave pending investigation re firing her. shud [sic] be finished by end of week."

Absolutely clear cut violation of the 1st amendment. If they had any shame, everyone involved would resign.

Re: Texas A&M suspended professor accused of criticizing Lt. Gov. Patrick in lecture

#35

Post by ceejayoz »

bachmeier wrote: post #28
ceejayoz wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This one'd probably hinge on whether the comment was "made pursuant to the employee's job duties". In chronological order: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickering_v._Board_of_Educatio... establishes a "right to speak on issues of public importance" for public employees. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garcetti_v._Ceballos limits that right when statements are "made pursuant to his position as a public employee". https:…

I'd be interested to hear how this could fall under the second classification. The professor in this case wasn't even working directly with the politician.

You can be a public employee without being a direct report to the Governor.

Re: Texas A&M suspended professor accused of criticizing Lt. Gov. Patrick in lecture

#36

Post by MisterBastahrd »

pityJuke wrote: post #14

As Nilay Patel from the Verge put it [1] >Your regular reminder that the biggest threat to free speech is the government. > Complaining about social platforms moderating content according to their whims is just how politicians distract you from how fast they’ve all gotten sick of the First Amendment. This story is outrageous — no one will even say what this professor allegedly said that was so offensive! [1]: https:/…

That's not really an insightful statement given that free speech in the context that it is being discussed is literally referencing ONLY government interference on the dissemination of speech. It's like saying that the biggest threat to becoming wet is water.

Re: Texas A&M suspended professor accused of criticizing Lt. Gov. Patrick in lecture

#37

Post by jldugger »

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #15
vxNsr wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Uh no. If you're a professor at a state school, and part of your job involves research into the effectiveness of drug policies in harm prevention, then you're not only allowed to make derogatory comments about your employer but compelled to do so if that is where your research takes you. This is not about party-political point scoring: lives are literally at stake, never mind fundamental academic freedoms.

I've worked in unclassified roles (not faculty). Academia likes to talk a good game about freedom but their annual appointments make it clear the money you get is at the governor's discretion. It's probably a mistake to exercise that discretion, but it's a mistake faculty are powerless to stop: "If you come at the king, you best not miss."

Re: Texas A&M suspended professor accused of criticizing Lt. Gov. Patrick in lecture

#38

Post by vxNsr »

ceejayoz wrote: post #27
vxNsr wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly which is why it’s a huge problem when the tech companies act in lock step with government officials.

It'd be a huge First Amendment problem if tech companies weren't permitted to agree with the government.

That’s an incredibly aggressive intentional misinterpretation of what I said.

In the last 3 years we had government officials directing, in very strong language, various tech companies on what was and was not allowed on their platforms. While many people might argue that tech platforms are not public squares and should be free to censor however they like, everyone should have a problem with politicians directing tech companies on what can be said on their platforms.

As an addendum, I’m always curious to hear what that camp has to say about net neutrality after arguing so vigorously against its core principles.

IMHO if you want to operate as a mass market platform and are pursuing a winner takes all business strategy you should be regulated as a common carrier (Uber, Facebook, Comcast, Google, Microsoft, cloudflare, etc).

Re: Texas A&M suspended professor accused of criticizing Lt. Gov. Patrick in lecture

#39

Post by mikeyouse »

wolverine876 wrote: post #30
patmorgan23 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC public universities are state actors and thus have to follow certain frost amendment restrictions. Professors at state universities are state employees and you can't fire a state employee for criticizing an elected official.

In which state is that law?

All of them. State employees have very broad 1st Amendment protections.

Re: Texas A&M suspended professor accused of criticizing Lt. Gov. Patrick in lecture

#40

Post by ceejayoz »

vxNsr wrote: post #38
ceejayoz wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'd be a huge First Amendment problem if tech companies weren't permitted to agree with the government.

That’s an incredibly aggressive intentional misinterpretation of what I said. In the last 3 years we had government officials directing, in very strong language, various tech companies on what was and was not allowed on their platforms. While many people might argue that tech platforms are not public squares and should be free to censor however they like, everyone should have a problem with politicians directing tech…

> In the last 3 years we had government officials directing, in very strong language, various tech companies on what was and was not allowed on their platforms.

And, as is their First Amendment right, those tech companies frequently responded with "no". This is very clear from the Twitter Files information, even if the journalists involved glossed over that point.

For example:

https://thehill.com/policy/technology/3849819-trump-asked-tw...

> Then-President Trump asked Twitter to take down a tweet from model and television personality Chrissy Teigen in 2019 because he saw it as “derogatory,” according to testimony from a Twitter whistleblower and former employee.

Trump has the First Amendment right to ask. Twitter has the First Amendment right - which they exercised - to decline that request.

If Trump had sent US Marshals to seize Twitter HQ when they said no, that is where we have issues.

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