Live data from Hacker News

Linus Torvalds: Programs exist for their users

lkml.org

31–40 of 136 posts

Re: Linus Torvalds: Programs exist for their users

#31

In my experience binary compatibility on linux is a train wreck. Ever tried to get a binary compiled 5 years ago to run on a fresh install of linux? Good luck. If you still have the specific version of every shared library that it loaded you might be able to get it to work. This isn't the fault of the kernel team though. It is probably to be expected on platforms in which distributing source code is the default optio…

> This isn't the fault of the kernel team though.

It is the result of having no unified platform and library release coordination, no long term plans, nothing, just chaos. Everybody just releases when he is in the mood for it. And since nothing is complete when released, devs further down the chain always go for the latest and greatest to get additional functionality. And to upgrade app1, you have to upgrade lib1 which triggers the updates of app2, app3, app4, lib3, etc. Sometimes you cant update a simple app without updating the whole desktop. The Linux dependency net appears nightmarish to everyone coming from Windows, where you have a reliable, stable base system which doesnt change for a decade and every app targets the same base system.

Linux, the kernel, is only running that great because it has a dictator. But Linus' dictatorship ends at the kernel borders, he has little influence outside. The Linux desktop also needs a dictator to massively slow down the rate of uncoordinated changes and force-stabilize the ecosystem. I hoped that Mark Shuttleworth could be that man, but he then introduced Unity... but even with unity, Ubuntu is the only chance for the Linux desktop for having a single defined set of libs attractive and influential enough for app devs as a primary target so they can safely go with the library versions in Ubuntu, instead of constantly chasing the latest and greatest versions from the upstream.

Re: Linus Torvalds: Programs exist for their users

#33
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty stupid stab, to be honest. Every major desktop/workstation operating system uses microkernel or hybrid architecture (even NT, yeah, that's true; I know that Linux thinks hybrid is another word for macro-). And it is like this for some purpose. To my best knowledge being macrokernel makes Linux "huge and bloated" like someone has once said.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microkernel search Windows or NT. OS X, Linux and NT don't use microkernels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_kernel No, Windows and OS X use hybrid kernels.

Re: Linus Torvalds: Programs exist for their users

#34
post #24

I got a good laugh from this quote: "[Linux] is not some crazy drug-induced microkernel"

That sentence is a betrayal of UNIX's history:

There are two major products that came out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. (Jeremy S. Anderson)

Re: Linus Torvalds: Programs exist for their users

#35

In my experience binary compatibility on linux is a train wreck. Ever tried to get a binary compiled 5 years ago to run on a fresh install of linux? Good luck. If you still have the specific version of every shared library that it loaded you might be able to get it to work. This isn't the fault of the kernel team though. It is probably to be expected on platforms in which distributing source code is the default optio…

There is a binary compatibility for kernel. Typically it's just the user-space dynamic libraries (in Windows speak: dlls not belonging to kernel) that you miss if you have a 5 year old binary and it won't run. Linus doesn't control user-space libs, just kernel.

See how jwz shows you how to run a binary of Nestcape from 1995 (17 years old) on the latest Linuxen:

http://www.jwz.org/blog/2008/03/happy-run-some-old-web-brows...

Your major problem if you want to make a closed source application is that the user space dynamic libraries are mostly (L)GPL licensed, so you have to avoid (L)GPL libraries to have a legally fully-library-independent closed source application. LGPL license allows closed source linking only if you link dynamically to the LGPL library (meaning: your application must depend on the externally present library which can be replaced at any time). Which is really fair, IMHO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Lesser_General_Public_Licen...

Re: Linus Torvalds: Programs exist for their users

#36

In my experience binary compatibility on linux is a train wreck. Ever tried to get a binary compiled 5 years ago to run on a fresh install of linux? Good luck. If you still have the specific version of every shared library that it loaded you might be able to get it to work. This isn't the fault of the kernel team though. It is probably to be expected on platforms in which distributing source code is the default optio…

> This isn't the fault of the kernel team though. It is the result of having no unified platform and library release coordination, no long term plans, nothing, just chaos. Everybody just releases when he is in the mood for it. And since nothing is complete when released, devs further down the chain always go for the latest and greatest to get additional functionality. And to upgrade app1, you have to upgrade lib1 whi…

Not sure why this was down voted so much, there is an element of truth to it.

When you are dealing with different distributions that provide different versions of core libraries, different sound architectures , package managers and put things like executables and config files into different parts of the filesystem.

I thought that the Linux standard base would be the way to solve this.

Re: Linus Torvalds: Programs exist for their users

#37
post #34
post #24

I got a good laugh from this quote: "[Linux] is not some crazy drug-induced microkernel"

That sentence is a betrayal of UNIX's history: There are two major products that came out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. (Jeremy S. Anderson)

I think it rather refers to MINIX.

Re: Linus Torvalds: Programs exist for their users

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This isn't the fault of the kernel team though. It is the result of having no unified platform and library release coordination, no long term plans, nothing, just chaos. Everybody just releases when he is in the mood for it. And since nothing is complete when released, devs further down the chain always go for the latest and greatest to get additional functionality. And to upgrade app1, you have to upgrade lib1 whi…

Not sure why this was down voted so much, there is an element of truth to it. When you are dealing with different distributions that provide different versions of core libraries, different sound architectures , package managers and put things like executables and config files into different parts of the filesystem. I thought that the Linux standard base would be the way to solve this.

Probably because though there is an element of truth in it, it just sounds plain wrong.

After two sentences i thought "he probably works for microsoft or another big corporation", not because it's flame, but because of the attitude to regard this as pure chaos (and having no big plan as bad). I even looked up the profile.

There is kind of a release-plan, not for the whole eco-system, but that's what stable distros are for. So the remark to Ubuntu is right. But it's wrong to mix library-stability with perceived frontend-issues with Unity. Ubuntu still fulfills that role for some apps. And besides that, it isn't necessarily wrong to write new programs against new libraries. They have new features and new bugfixes.

I wouldn't want the ecosystem to stagnate right now. Or ever.

Re: Linus Torvalds: Programs exist for their users

#39

In my experience binary compatibility on linux is a train wreck. Ever tried to get a binary compiled 5 years ago to run on a fresh install of linux? Good luck. If you still have the specific version of every shared library that it loaded you might be able to get it to work. This isn't the fault of the kernel team though. It is probably to be expected on platforms in which distributing source code is the default optio…

Well, then, perhaps I am just lucky but just a few weeks ago I was able to get a fifteen year old binary running under both centos 6 and fedora 15.

I did have to fish around a bit for an old version of curses and create a symlink. It only took a few moments though.

Just a data point to consider.

Re: Linus Torvalds: Programs exist for their users

#40
post #29
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty stupid stab, to be honest. Every major desktop/workstation operating system uses microkernel or hybrid architecture (even NT, yeah, that's true; I know that Linux thinks hybrid is another word for macro-). And it is like this for some purpose. To my best knowledge being macrokernel makes Linux "huge and bloated" like someone has once said.

NT puts third-party written graphics drivers into Ring 0. That's definitely not a microkernel. As for whether or not hybrid is another word for Macro, whatever. If that's a face-saving way for microkernel advocates to avoid admitting that their original idea was insane, I'm fine with that. Linus's quote was "drug induced microkernel", however. It wasn't "drug induced microkernel or hybrid architecture" --- although i…

> forced by a family member to be a Windows support desk, you have my pity....

Thank you - it's nice to know there are people out there thinking about us :(

Post reply on HN