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Advice From An Old Programmer

learnpythonthehardway.org

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Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#31

Post by gaius »

lrobb wrote: post #26
zerostar07 wrote: post #12

I think this piece keeps coming up every so many days. It's a great piece of advice, and i think most developers come to the same conclusion after a few years. I think a useful corrolary from this is "Do not reinvent the wheel all the time by changing programming styles, instead try to extend the frontiers of technology" (I 'm looking at you, web frameworks).

This. I was reading someone's blog the other day about how they were rewriting their app in node.js... whereas a few years before that, I remember that they had rewritten the app in rails... Their product could've been so much further along had they just stuck with php/.net (whatever is was originally).

An app that can be rewritten on a whim is not a significant app. Harsh but true.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#32

Post by usedtolurk »

nadam wrote: post #7

"People who can code in the world of technology companies are a dime a dozen and get no respect" Generally in business, those people whose job title is 'programmer' or 'developer' or 'software engineer' get relatively little respect even with lots of experience. (I am 37 years old and programming since 12) Previously I thought the only way out of this is to become a 'manager', which I never really wanted to do... Rec…

In my experience it's the programmers who can ONLY program that get little respect. The ones that can also understand other problem domains (business/people/processes) tend to get respect no matter what their job title, even in technology companies. So Zed is right - programming is most powerful as a tool to be applied to more interesting problems.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#33

Post by gaius »

OoTheNigerian wrote: post #6
juliendsv-mbm wrote: post #3

"People who can code in the world of technology companies are a dime a dozen and get no respect" , I disagree with that, I think you got a lot of respect in a company that is focused on technology. But If you are working into a marketing company in the development team, then yes you will not get much respect..

What I think he means by "if you have coding as a secret weapon" in this case would be, if you are a Marketer that can code as an extra, you will be highly valued. I think it is hard to argue with that.

Do you know any such marketeers?

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#34

Post by michaelochurch »

lrobb wrote: post #24
DougBTX wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> more "respected/cool" By using "cool", I get the impression that you're thinking more about respect from people outside work, rather than those you are working with. I think the article was talking about respect from the people you work with and work under, in the sense that if you are not respected, then you likely won't get paid what you are worth. From the point of view, point (a) is a contradiction - if you are…

Pay isn't that well correlated with respect. Exhibit: The "starving artist" vs the "slimeball lawyer".

Whatever people say about "lawyers", people tend to have a lot of respect for their lawyers. It's lawyers as an aggregate that people tend to stereotype.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#36

Post by michaelochurch »

atomicdog wrote: post #14
nadam wrote: post #7

"People who can code in the world of technology companies are a dime a dozen and get no respect" Generally in business, those people whose job title is 'programmer' or 'developer' or 'software engineer' get relatively little respect even with lots of experience. (I am 37 years old and programming since 12) Previously I thought the only way out of this is to become a 'manager', which I never really wanted to do... Rec…

a) Is "respect" really so important to you that you are willing to sacrifice a 25 year career? Surely if the pay is good and you enjoy that's all that matters. b) By switching professions to a more "respected/cool" one do you not think you're just contributing to the problem of programmers not being taken seriously?

Being respected in that sense is extremely important. First of all, people need to pay the bills, which you can't do if your work is viewed as a commodity and you're therefore in wage competition with 22-year-olds and outsourcing shops. Second and more importantly, for the types of people who learn programming to enjoy their jobs requires a certain amount of autonomy that isn't usually granted to non-managerial workers.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#37

Post by opining »

Would have been a great article except for the last 3 paragraphs.

Instead, I like the letter from _why in this post: http://delicious.com/redirect?url=http%3A//www.smashingmagaz...

It goes:

I do not write tests for my code. I do not write very many comments. I change styles very frequently. And most of all, I shun the predominant styles of coding, because that would go against the very essence of experimentation. In short: all I do is muck around.

So, my way of measuring a great programmer is different from some prevailing thought on the subject. I would like to hear what Matz would say about this. You should ask him, seriously.

I admire programmers who take risks. They aren’t afraid to write dangerous or “crappy” code. If you worry too much about being clean and tidy, you can’t push the boundaries (I don’t think!). I also admire programmers who refuse to stick with one idea about the “way the world is.” These programmers ignore protocol and procedure. I really like Autrijus Tang because he embraces all languages and all procedures. There is no wrong way in his world.

Anyway, you say you want to become better. I mean that’s really all you need. You feel driven, so stick with it. I would also start writing short scripts to share with people on the Web. Little Ruby scripts or Rails programs or MouseHole scripts to show off. Twenty lines here and there, and soon people will be beating you up and you’ll be scrambling to build on those scripts and figure out your style and newer innovations and so on.

— _why

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#38

Post by DanielBMarkham »

Edw's comment aside, I can understand being bored with programming. After you learn your way around a dozen or so different platforms, if you're not getting bored you might want to check to see if you don't have a bit of Asperger's.

But he nails it when he points out that all of this programming talk is bullshit. It's just stuff to chat mindlessly about while you're not helping people. Programming is making computers help people. Never forget that. The more you focus on the computers part, the unhappier you are going to be.

I will extend my analogy. If after the 50th article you read on HN about some upcoming technology you haven't figured out that something is wrong with your focus you should seek help. If you want theory, computer science is a great field to study. For the vast majority of us, it is not an end to itself.

It's all very easy to get good at critiquing Judy arrays and suck at making something people want. You can carry on like this for the rest of your life. Don't do that. You provide a bridge to the future for millions of people. Please, the rest of us need your help.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#39

Post by akrymski »

zerostar07 wrote: post #12

I think this piece keeps coming up every so many days. It's a great piece of advice, and i think most developers come to the same conclusion after a few years. I think a useful corrolary from this is "Do not reinvent the wheel all the time by changing programming styles, instead try to extend the frontiers of technology" (I 'm looking at you, web frameworks).

Yep, and it always reminds me of how far Apple came with Objective-C. Microsoft and Google continually push new languages on us, and yet Apple developers used Objective-C for over 16 years just fine, and continue to push technology barriers with it. Apple instead chooses to improve supporting tools - XCode, etc.

On the other hand sometimes you have to take a step backward to take 2 steps forward. Sometimes thats a project rewrite, sometimes its a new programming style, new code layout, a new IDE, or a new programming language. A language is just a tool, and picking up a new one shouldn't be hard. Its natural that we tend to migrate to simpler and more productive tools over time.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#40

Post by michaelochurch »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #38

Edw's comment aside, I can understand being bored with programming. After you learn your way around a dozen or so different platforms, if you're not getting bored you might want to check to see if you don't have a bit of Asperger's. But he nails it when he points out that all of this programming talk is bullshit. It's just stuff to chat mindlessly about while you're not helping people. Programming is making computers…

When I was 21, I thought the fun part was learning new technologies and the hard, frustrating, somewhat boring part was writing the code. (I also only knew C++ and Java, so I thought the accidental complexity of these languages was an intrinsic fixture of programming.) Learning Python, then Ocaml, then Lisp, was a lot of fun. (The REPL makes a huge difference in the experience of programming. It makes the code real rather than some hazy gobbledegook.) It was even better to start using these languages for real-world problems.

I'm 28 now and I find the writing of code to be the fun part, because I'm now good at it and know better technologies than C++ and Java. I get into "the zone" and before I know it, 4 hours have passed. Unfortunately, that's not the reality of industrial software engineering where, if you're lucky, 25% of your time might be spent writing code. Learning new platforms (often with so many of them that I can only learn enough to glue them together) is often boring. It's fun to learn new technologies when there's something genuinely new in them, but I'm sick of having to learn new and often less useful ways of doing old things.

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