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17.1 Salesforce Towers worth of empty office space spread across SF

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Re: 17.1 Salesforce Towers worth of empty office space spread across SF

#31

US cities are going to be in a world of hurt here pretty soon. Cities exist as job markets. And the primary force that keeps urban areas safe and friendly is the shoeleather of middle class workers coming in and out of work each day. The vacuum left has been filled with homelessness and poverty. These people were always here, but there was enough critical mass that they were at the margins. Now they are at all of the…

Such great and thoughtful prose. Thank you for writing it. (Genuinely!)

Re: 17.1 Salesforce Towers worth of empty office space spread across SF

#32
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about outside of America but according to comparable reports from the firm Cushman & Wakefield, Austin boasts 15.7 million square feet vacant, a rate of 25%. The same firm has SF marked at 27% vacant. I have never been sure if HN is invested in commenting on SF real estate because they disproportionately live here, or because they live elsewhere and get a warped news feed that has an interest in portrayi…

Vast undercount -- probably for every city. Commercial financing has convenants which require minimum occupancy, landlords are heavily incentivized to keep tenants on the books even if they're not actually using the space. Know personally of startups in SF which have been discouraged from cutting their lease and paying a penalty so that the landlord can keep occupancy #s high. Of course, there are sweeteners involved…

Yes, that's why I prefer to compare using the Cushman & Wakefield stats that have a consistent methodology.

Re: 17.1 Salesforce Towers worth of empty office space spread across SF

#33

US cities are going to be in a world of hurt here pretty soon. Cities exist as job markets. And the primary force that keeps urban areas safe and friendly is the shoeleather of middle class workers coming in and out of work each day. The vacuum left has been filled with homelessness and poverty. These people were always here, but there was enough critical mass that they were at the margins. Now they are at all of the…

> Cities often had their priorities backwards and became very dependent on unsustainably high property values. Even if you started rezoning office buildings into housing, SF would be taking a double hit - there is less reason to live in SF and more housing would bring down values everywhere. Forgetting that these business districts are pretty undesirable places to live anyway.

Let's thought experiment this. In one world, you have a lot more housing supply, which would help stabilize the drain from people being priced out, and quite possibly swing SF back towards being a desirable place to live once it's no longer unattainably expensive (and spur jobs too because you'd need businesses to serve the people who'd otherwise leave or never come). Prices dip then plateau then gradually recover if you avert a "death spiral."

In one world, you do nothing, you shrug and say "homelessness isn't my problem, and I don't want any new housing or anything." Let's say you get that death spiral. What's happened to your property value then? NIMBYism ain't saving you there if far fewer people want to live there.

Other cities in the US, especially those which are less geographically constrained than SF, and a bit more practical than just "we're gonna say we care about homelessness instead of demonizing people, but actually we're not gonna do anything", have ongoing development and feel a lot healthier. There are likely still rental market dragons lurking (though many of these other cities are also less WFH-oriented/friendly) but they're in far better shape so far.

Re: 17.1 Salesforce Towers worth of empty office space spread across SF

#34

US cities are going to be in a world of hurt here pretty soon. Cities exist as job markets. And the primary force that keeps urban areas safe and friendly is the shoeleather of middle class workers coming in and out of work each day. The vacuum left has been filled with homelessness and poverty. These people were always here, but there was enough critical mass that they were at the margins. Now they are at all of the…

American cities are huge money laundering fronts using real estate.

https://www.fincen.gov/resources/advisories/fincen-advisory-...

  Criminals can use all-cash purchases to make payments in full for properties and evade scrutiny—on themselves and the origin of their wealth—that is regularly performed by financial institutions in transactions involving mortgages.9 All-cash transactions account for nearly one in four residential real estate purchases, totaling hundreds of billions of dollars nationwide, and are particularly exposed to abuse.10 All-cash transactions account for an even larger stake in some U.S. markets.    For instance, nearly 50 percent of residential real estate sales in Miami-Dade County were all-cash transactions in 2015 and 2016.11 Many all-cash transactions are routine and legitimate, however, they also present significant opportunities for exploitation by illicit actors.

Re: 17.1 Salesforce Towers worth of empty office space spread across SF

#35
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Actually, who am I kidding- some other interest group would probably take their place. This is it unfortunately. After observing the SF NIMBY mentality for many, many years, you start to see the matrix. It has nothing to do with gentrification, inclusion, environmentalism, or any of the other purported values. It's about one thing: stasis. Keeping SF the same at all costs, and making sure no new people come here. S…

> It has nothing to do with gentrification, inclusion, environmentalism, or any of the other purported values. It's about one thing: stasis. Keeping SF the same at all costs, and making sure no new people come here. No. You're just monstering your enemies so you don't have to argue with them. Poisoning the well.

How is "someone who doesn't want change" more of a monster than "someone who only cares about their property values," the usual NIMBY stereotype thrown around on HN?

Re: 17.1 Salesforce Towers worth of empty office space spread across SF

#36

US cities are going to be in a world of hurt here pretty soon. Cities exist as job markets. And the primary force that keeps urban areas safe and friendly is the shoeleather of middle class workers coming in and out of work each day. The vacuum left has been filled with homelessness and poverty. These people were always here, but there was enough critical mass that they were at the margins. Now they are at all of the…

I learned yesterday that the term of art for what you're describing is "urban doom loop".

Re: 17.1 Salesforce Towers worth of empty office space spread across SF

#37

If the owners would substantially cut the rent the empty office space would rapidly fill up.

Cutting rent means that the property is worth less. That means investors are demanding to know why the property is worth less, and the city collects less property taxes which might lead to politicians asking questions. While all that may be necessary, it won't happen until it's the only thing that can happen.

"fox guarding the hen house" is an old way to describe this. Gatekeepers have financial and competitive reasons not to make adjustments, and they do not.

Re: 17.1 Salesforce Towers worth of empty office space spread across SF

#38

US cities are going to be in a world of hurt here pretty soon. Cities exist as job markets. And the primary force that keeps urban areas safe and friendly is the shoeleather of middle class workers coming in and out of work each day. The vacuum left has been filled with homelessness and poverty. These people were always here, but there was enough critical mass that they were at the margins. Now they are at all of the…

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Re: 17.1 Salesforce Towers worth of empty office space spread across SF

#39

US cities are going to be in a world of hurt here pretty soon. Cities exist as job markets. And the primary force that keeps urban areas safe and friendly is the shoeleather of middle class workers coming in and out of work each day. The vacuum left has been filled with homelessness and poverty. These people were always here, but there was enough critical mass that they were at the margins. Now they are at all of the…

"Cities" is the wrong word here, it's really "downtown" or "city center" areas. The center of activities will move outwards toward the suburbs, but stay in the wider metro area. This has been slowly happening for a while in many (most ?) metro areas, but the pandemic will certainly expedite things.

Re: 17.1 Salesforce Towers worth of empty office space spread across SF

#40
What I don't understand is why we're still stuck with this idea that entire buildings need to be dedicated to one thing and one thing only. "Hybrid" spaces are still so rare and they wind up being not all that hybrid, more like 2 giant sections one for retail and one for office.
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