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How blind photographers visualize the world

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Re: How blind photographers visualize the world

#31
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I’m soooo curious what that’s like!! Can you recall memories as pictures or movies? My memory is totally visual so I’m really curious how recall works for people who can’t visualize things? How do you remember stuff??

Also wondering if aphantasiacs have trouble with imagining voices, sounds, music. Do they ever get songs stuck in their head?

This stuff is hard to describe. I can't visualize, and I can't hear a monologue in my head. I do have a monologue in my head, to some degree, but I don't actually hear anything. I just know it's going on and what's being said. Same with earworms. I hear songs in my head as if they are vibrating through a door down a long corridor or something. It can be just as annoying and just as hard to get rid of, though.

As for visualization, I can "picture" my living room, but when I try it's as if I'm walking through it with no light at all, but I'm familiar enough with it to know where to step because I know where everything is, more or less, and what I would be seeing if someone would turn on the light, i.e the couch is over there and if I'm not careful I'm going to step on the charger I left on the floor.

I didn't find out I was an aphant until my 50s. I thought "visualizing a beach" was a figment of speech. I assumed they meant thinking of it, not seeing it. Being alone in my head is like sitting in a quiet room with the lights off and is what I consider "normal". It's lead me to think that everyone has a lot of things happening on different internal "cpu cores" because this lack of stimulus makes it much more clear to me when ideas or solutions just pop into my head from some other part of me.

Re: How blind photographers visualize the world

#33
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A few years ago, my wife and I figured out she has aphantasia. Suddenly, it made sense why she has trouble with navigating, why I have to draw things for her so often rather than just explaining the shapes of the various parts and how they fit together, and also why she finds reading most books so boring. When she reads a book, any description of how things look just goes in one ear and out the other. When walking ar…

These aren’t necessarily related. I have aphantasia (am aphantastic?) but have a great sense of direction, and think very spatially. Just not with pictures or lines in a “mind’s eye”, as people call it.

I like using the word "aphant" to describe myself in this context.

Re: How blind photographers visualize the world

#34
post #8

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I discovered I have this by reading an article about it in Scientific American. It completely blew my mind. I thought “visualizing” was a figure of speech, and was shocked to realize that people actually form images in their mind. I’m also a photographer, and pre-visualizing shots in my mind doesn’t happen the way I’ve heard others describe their process. I immerse myself in the scene, taking everything in as fully a…

I'm confused, I can "visualize" images in my head, memories or new things both. I know how everything fits together, I can have this "image" even with my eyes open. I can draw them, recall details and context. However, when I close my eyes I see dark perlin noise and nothing else. So maybe it is figure of speech? Here's a visual test, but before clicking just imagine a red five-pointed star: https://curingaphantasia.…

Even before clicking your link I imagined a red five-pointed star. With my eyes open it looked like image number 6, except the five points where a bit longer/sharper angle.

Closing my eyes (also before clicking your link) resulted in something equivalent to 4.

Re: How blind photographers visualize the world

#35
post #28
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also wondering if aphantasiacs have trouble with imagining voices, sounds, music. Do they ever get songs stuck in their head?

I have a bad visual memory. But when I remember things, instead of seeing things, it’s a general sense of knowing, and at times a sense of feeling. If you asked me what it was like on the beach last weekend, I could tell you it was sandy, there was a vivid sunset, and there were a lot of people. I don’t see these things, I just know them. If you asked me to describe the sunset in more detail, I might recall moments t…

I have this thing when often I recall a visual representation of something I have somewhere randomly seen looking at it subconsciously after someone is looking for it.

Just today a colleague was looking for AA batteries and told me we have none. An image of a 20 pack of green AA batteries laying on a white-grey shelf popped up in my head, I had no idea where or when I saw it but I knew it was real.

I checked three shelves of similar color with similar light conditions and there it was, a 20 pack of green AA batteries.

It's hard to describe the "image" I "see", it is very focused on the center of the image and the information is progressively "lost" towards the edges of the image, as if there was no edge to it like in real photos or virtual pictures. (kinda like vignette but with information)

Re: How blind photographers visualize the world

#36
post #21
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. Also thought it was a figure of speech. Though I often think of myself as visualizing things, it's more of a spatial awareness and recollection of attributes, never actually visual.

I’m soooo curious what that’s like!! Can you recall memories as pictures or movies? My memory is totally visual so I’m really curious how recall works for people who can’t visualize things? How do you remember stuff??

I can't see anything in my "minds eye". I've always tended to remember abstract concepts better than visual descriptions when I read books, and similarly remember concepts for more than imagery when I watch movies. Though at the same time, when I remember what something looks like, even though I can't see it I can often sketch it out. Things I'm familiar with I can if anything sketch out more precisely than average - my spatial reasoning is very good (I don't think that's connected, but just to say that it's good enough that there's no indication it's negatively affected by not being able to picture things).

I realise how hard it is to imagine in that if I try to describe it I reach for examples that makes sense to me because I don't "see" things. E.g. "if you hold up your hand, how do you know what's behind it?" or "how do you know where things are in your house in the dark?" makes total sense to me, because I know what's there even if I can't picture it in my head.

I also do see things in my mind when I dream, so I know what it's like. In addition I've had one experience while meditating (it could be I fell asleep and had a lucid dream) where I saw imagery that was far clearer than what I remember of my dreams.

Even that part is odd, though, because I can't "see" the memory of that imagery or my dreams either, but I remember qualities of it.

(I have tried recreating that moment, and I now occasionally try to "nudge" things to see if it's possible to trigger something, without much luck, but clearly it's possible for me to see things in my minds eye, but whether it's something I can unlock in a waking state I have no clue)

Re: How blind photographers visualize the world

#37
post #24
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m soooo curious what that’s like!! Can you recall memories as pictures or movies? My memory is totally visual so I’m really curious how recall works for people who can’t visualize things? How do you remember stuff??

Also wondering if aphantasiacs have trouble with imagining voices, sounds, music. Do they ever get songs stuck in their head?

I get songs stuck in my head, but I don't imagine other peoples voices, nor do I "hear" sounds of instruments or similar - if I imagine music I imagine myself humming it.

But these things appear to not be directly linked - far more people have no voice in their head than have issues seeing things (about 2% or so see nothing). Similarly I was shocked to realise that a lot of people have no internal monologue or conversation - I have a constant monologue going in my head my ever waking moment other than when I suppress it with meditation.

Here's an interesting article that addresses some of these additional aspects [1], and which interestingly fall in the same trap of assuming their experience is universal when they write:

> The idea of an internal dialogue – rather than a monologue – will be familiar to anyone who’s ever rehearsed an important conversation, or rehashed an argument, in their mind.

But that is not true for me. I rehearse pretty much every conversation I know will happen, but the other side is always silent. I know what I think they'd answer and I practice my side, but there's no voice - mine or others - voicing the rest.

For others there is, and for some whole discussions with multiple different voices can happen (sometimes that can indicate a mental health problem, but usually that boils down to whether they're intrusive or beyond your control)

[1] https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190819-what-your-inner-...

Re: How blind photographers visualize the world

#38
post #2

There is also this recently discovered phenomena of aphantasia which is fascinating. Lot of people dont have mental images and grow up not even aware that others can form such images. Here's one interesting account. https://m.facebook.com/nt/screen/?params=%7B%22note_id%22%3A...

I wonder how many things like this there are. I have two that I am aware of. Musical anhedonia (a neurological condition characterized by an inability to derive pleasure from music) and I never dream while sleeping (I’ve never heard a name for this). In this case though, I am aware that others do have an emotional response to music and that others do dream while sleeping.

Re: How blind photographers visualize the world

#39
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a bad visual memory. But when I remember things, instead of seeing things, it’s a general sense of knowing, and at times a sense of feeling. If you asked me what it was like on the beach last weekend, I could tell you it was sandy, there was a vivid sunset, and there were a lot of people. I don’t see these things, I just know them. If you asked me to describe the sunset in more detail, I might recall moments t…

I have this thing when often I recall a visual representation of something I have somewhere randomly seen looking at it subconsciously after someone is looking for it. Just today a colleague was looking for AA batteries and told me we have none. An image of a 20 pack of green AA batteries laying on a white-grey shelf popped up in my head, I had no idea where or when I saw it but I knew it was real. I checked three sh…

The thing is, I tend to remember very specific details of what things look like even though I can't see them at all.

In fact, I pointed out on another thread that I'm very fuzzy about the layout of code and things like syntax highlighting because my memory of code is largely driven by remember "visual" shapes of methods etc., even though I can't actually see them when they're not in front of me.

So the recall appears to be largely decoupled from actually seeing the images.

Interestingly, my recall appears to be more "abstract" and "cleaned up". E.g. I remember vividly (notice how often these words pop up, and I use them all the time myself, but just remember when I use them I use them in a more abstract sense) an exercise in art class at school where we were given the task of first drawing our shoes without looking under the desk, and then we were told to take a shoe off and put it in front of us and draw it.

I can remember clearly how the two drawings looked, but can't see them. The one I drew from memory had clear, firm lines, and was very precise, and the shading and shadows were idealised. It looked like a cartoon-shoe in a way - it was too tidy and clean to be the "real thing". The one I drew with my shoe in front of me had messy lines and shadows that reflected the light of the room at the time, and was far closer to an impressionist drawing. It was marginally closer to the real thing, but it wasn't "better" as art, just a very different style.

But the important bit to me is that in retrospect it's a demonstration that my recall of visual memories is there, and I can access them even if I can't see them.

Re: How blind photographers visualize the world

#40
post #2

There is also this recently discovered phenomena of aphantasia which is fascinating. Lot of people dont have mental images and grow up not even aware that others can form such images. Here's one interesting account. https://m.facebook.com/nt/screen/?params=%7B%22note_id%22%3A...

This article is great[1]

> Ed Catmull, 74, has the condition aphantasia, in which people cannot visualise mental images at all.

> And in a surprising survey of his former employees, so do some of the world's best animators.

[1] "Aphantasia: Ex-Pixar chief Ed Catmull says 'my mind's eye is blind'" -- https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-47830256

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