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Resilience requires helping each other out

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Re: Resilience requires helping each other out

#31

Post by vorpalhex »

renewiltord wrote: post #30

There's lots of communities where this is true and it doesn't require a full scale "end to capitalism" or whatever. Ultimately, you can get quite far with Coase's Theory of the Firm as a model. Nail salons for immigrants, the motel business, the Afghan tamale business. These all have massive graph interconnectedness in their social structure. You can have it, too, if you'd like. Since I found it quite possible to do…

There are deep flaws to favour driven communities which often lead to bribery and coercion. Since a favour has opaque cost compared to transparent cost, bad actors can easily use them as a weapon of coercion.

Re: Resilience requires helping each other out

#32

Post by AndrewKemendo »

majkinetor wrote: post #27

If only positive reciprocity wasn't so easily gamed way too frequently. Its basically given that somebody will use your kidness/help for its own benefit leaving your with nothing in return. There is number of people I personally know that just let it happen over and over again... Its almost like some good deeds are invisible to some people.

The solution I’ve come up with is to budget for this overage

So, some nonzero number of people will screw you over if you are kind and give them a break. Add in a 10% emotional buffer and don’t give away what you can’t lose, as you know that this is going to happen.

Re: Resilience requires helping each other out

#33

Post by landemva »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #19

Before we reliably had money, we had barter and "mutual aid." Now, some people think you just pay for stuff with money and if someone is "nice" to you, you don't "owe" them anything. A lot of people no longer seem to understand the implicit social contract behind such interactions and it can go bad places. From religion to community development work to politics, there have been myriad attempts to educate people that…

Yet Americans vote for religion of government that preaches we will be taken care of by continuous deficit spending. Deficit spending of money/value created out of thin air will eventually reach a mathematical point of no return. Maybe USA is already at that point, and now we wait for the judgement day when money no longer has purchasing power.

Re: Resilience requires helping each other out

#34

Post by landemva »

nologic01 wrote: post #11

The question is how to organize reciprocity in large, complex and evolving systems. The canonical approach is through various contracts. But those can be too specific and poorly adapted and even worsen outcomes under stress. Flexible contracts designed to perform when the "unknown unknowns" materialize are intuitively the "solution", except they dont mesh well will the more typical transactional arrangements that aim…

An online tech community has been experimenting with retroactive public goods. It is fascinating to watch these efforts.

https://ethglobal.com/talks/hackathon-kick-off-retroactive-p...

Re: Resilience requires helping each other out

#35

Post by landemva »

getmeinrn wrote: post #7
high_5 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was the way of life for any community before industrial revolution. It appears that all attempts at creating such communities have more or less failed, because they eventually become coopted either for or against capitalistic economy.

They tend not to fail when religion is a pillar in the community. The Amish and Mennonites are great examples.

Those communities have mechanisms to censor mis-behaving persons. Participants must agree, when entering the group, to social rules including censure.

Re: Resilience requires helping each other out

#37

Post by policepost »

squirtlebonflow wrote: post #5
policepost wrote: post #3

This is sort of the fundamental building block of many socialist and anarchist movements. The concept of "mutual aid" as put forward by folks like Kropotkin is basically we should build communities that help one another, offering our communities excess when we have our, and gracefully accepting aid when we need it.

Unfortunately, the term mutual aid has been co-opted by democrats to mean "charity". Likely because there is a stigma in our society around accepting help...

[dead]

Re: Resilience requires helping each other out

#38

Post by nologic01 »

em-bee wrote: post #29
varjag wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an improperly low level of abstraction to the problem, akin to "we're all made of atoms". True and useless.

on the contrary, everyone of us needs to realize that we are part of a global community and that all of our actions accumulate to have an effect across the world. so instead of saying that this will never work because we are to diverse, instead we need to strive and MAKE IT WORK! put aside our differences, find common ground and build a global cooperative community that includes every human being on this planet.

I believe the reason many people refuse to recognize the evident reality of our interdependence is an implied "all or nothing" simple mindedness that dismisses the required changes as unachievable.

We clearly cant be "best buddies" across all 7bln x 7bln pairs sharing the planet at any given time. Nor is it needed.

The minimum common ground needed for long term sustainable survival is just that. A minimum. But it has not been reached and time is running out. Our numbers and techological progress are outgrowing our social adaptations for containing conflict at the fastest pace ever. Unless we address this imbalance things will not end well.

Re: Resilience requires helping each other out

#39

Post by nologic01 »

varjag wrote: post #24
nologic01 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are all related to each other. A pandemic can wipe us out. A major climate event or a nuclear accident can wreak havoc, increasingly high tech wars can eliminate billions. We choose to downplay our common dependencies and exaggerate the differences. Its a social game we have learned to play when the stakes for our collective survival were lower.

This is an improperly low level of abstraction to the problem, akin to "we're all made of atoms". True and useless.

What would be the proper level of abstraction according to your view?

Re: Resilience requires helping each other out

#40

Post by carlosjobim »

JohnFen wrote: post #22
ethanbond wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social norms are really good at this stuff as long as people do actually spurn people who violate them. There’s been a recent spate of celebrities in the US who’ve “succeeded” by staying arguably within the bounds of legality while well outside the bounds of the norms we ought to want. Too much of those conversations end up about the legality and not about the much more powerful and more precarious norms being attack…

> There’s been a recent spate of celebrities in the US who’ve “succeeded” by staying arguably within the bounds of legality while well outside the bounds of the norms we ought to want. This also accurately describe a very large portion of silicon valley firms.

There are entire nations of people where this religion of "legality" has effectively replaced all previous social norms, culture and decency of the population. The result is that people will do any and every immoral thing imaginable to benefit themselves, as long as it is legal. And the only response is more and more and more laws and regulations.

In these places there is a phenomena of scam businesses preying on customers - and getting law enforcement help to do it. An example is fake invoice companies that just spam out fake invoices and then get the sheriff to help them collect the money, since the recipient is obliged by law to contest any invoice in writing, no matter how fake. Customers are highly suspicious of doing business and making purchases in these places, since they've been screwed over so many times. In aggregate this has a huge economic impact.

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