I studied at Harvard and the answer is that they want to pretend to be so smart and talented that they don't need to work. The image is of the effete aristocrat who enjoys life without lifting a finger. Think of George W. Bush: Got into Yale (Harvard too!) because his blue-blood line always did. Mediocre grades. Lots of alcohol and drugs. (Quit that later.) Avoided Vietnam with the cushiest fun job as a fighter pilot…
Smart and talented people need to work. Wealthy people don't.
Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?
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Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?
#32The whole experience felt so pre-social media era. Blog posts link to other blog posts which they regards as valuable and drive a discussion without ads and distraction.
It feels very early 2000th like and I enjoyed it. I still miss technorati. :)
Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?
#33I’m not sure if a cry for help / agitating at the university will matter. I’m not sure it’s so easy to blame parents either.
Lowell, Palo Alto, Amador Valley, Mission Viejo and Lynbrook are so ridiculously stressful. And that’s just in the Bay Area in California. Some parents from here send their kids to Exeter and Andover, which also really work the kids to the bone. Is Nightengale Bamford “easy?” Dalton and Trinity? Ultimately as long as there are so few spots for so many kids with genuine cognitive gifts, parents, students and teachers will deem insane competition in high schools rational. And that will manifest in mental health issues - ranging from quirks to crises - later in life.
Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?
#34Michael Sandel in his recent book[^1] called "The Tyranny of Merit" analyses the problem at length. It's a worthy read on a variety of topics around "merit" in our society, etc. Michael Sandel is a teacher of political philosophy at Harvard and one of the most well known philosophers of our time.
Another book called "The Danish Way of Parenting"[^2] explains how to raise kids that are: (a) self-starters in the sense that they don't rely on others for goal-setting and (b) coping in a healthy and constructive way with failure.
How can someone raise a child that will have to compete against the global young intellectual elite? Private tutors are common in London, amongst those who can afford them. They fly tutors for 160 BGP/hour alongside the family to Santorini for a week or two[^3]. Imagine having to compete with these ppl for a spot to an Ivy League college. Quoting from the respective Economist[^3] article:
> Tutoring has risen in line with a cultural shift: university education is now the norm for a larger share of school-leavers than ever before. Close to half of all 25- to 34-year-olds in the 37 wealthy countries that make up the OECD now have a degree. Other countries are fast catching up: by 2030 China and India will account for half of the 300m graduates in this age group worldwide.
> Widening access has changed the nature of the competition. Despite the large rise in the number of universities, the same institutions tend to fill the top places in the international rankings. This means that education is now a global battle: far more people in a wider range of countries are competing for slots in the same few, elite institutions. Twenty years ago, America’s Ivy League universities would admit a quarter or more of all applicants. In 2020 Harvard’s acceptance rate hit a new low of 5%.
[^1]: https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374289980/thetyrannyofmer...
[^2]: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Danish-Way-Parenting-Happiest-Confi...
[^3]: https://www.economist.com/1843/2020/10/09/first-class-flight...
Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?
#35In my experience with my interns, many of whom graduated from Harvard like me, some students at all universities suffer from burnout from their strenuous childhoods. So I sympathize that some kids need to chill a little. I wouldn’t call it self sabotage, but I understand the author is just trying to understand their classmates better. I’m not sure if a cry for help / agitating at the university will matter. I’m not s…
Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?
#36In my experience with my interns, many of whom graduated from Harvard like me, some students at all universities suffer from burnout from their strenuous childhoods. So I sympathize that some kids need to chill a little. I wouldn’t call it self sabotage, but I understand the author is just trying to understand their classmates better. I’m not sure if a cry for help / agitating at the university will matter. I’m not s…
Sounds like we really need some top universities, maybe new ones, to increase acceptance 10X or more, back to the level where they’d accept people who would’ve been accepted in 1970 with the same scores.
Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?
#37just sitting with friends talking about life in a relaxed setting and practicing creating connections stress free really helped me improve my soft skills (and dumb TV shows to have stuff to discuss).
Of course the minute it's actual addition I totally see their point but drugs and partying really had a prolonged positive impact on my life.
Those experiences did convince me not to pursue a PhD on one hand but also to build 3 companies and code a lot more on the other.
Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?
#38Another common reason for self-sabotage that the article doesn’t mention is ego. Failure sucks, especially when it’s because you just aren’t good enough. But if you self-sabotage, at least you were right. You thought you’d fail and you did fail. Ego wins! And who knows, maybe if you actually tried, you wouldn’t have failed! You weren’t not good enough after all, you just didn’t try. You totally could’ve done it if yo…
Maybe that's what's at the root of it, but it's rarely what these kids tell themselves, I don't think. Much more of a discovery about how delayed consequences are when you just ignore them, and how good it feels to focus on the random highs you can get over the satisfaction of a job well done that doesn't pay off for a long time.
Before you've ever skipped class, the presumption is the world ends were that to happen. Then you get so drunk you sleep through the alarm and... wait, nothing? Nobody cared?! You can just go get drunk, miss class, and your parents don't come out of the walls to beat you???
There are a lot of kids, I think, who've been driven through their academic lives via purely "stick" incentives. When they find out there isn't a stick looming over their head immediately, and there are a lot of distracting "carrots" within short reach, it's hard to come back from.
Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?
#39This is not to be conflated with a second point in the article. Once you pierce the veil on the context itself, be it academia or business or art or other things , it becomes extremely difficult for a person with moral integrity to allign themselves with the goals of that context.
Those two things exacerbate. For intance, when working towards your phd and gradually discovering that your field awards phd's for extremely sloppy and even obviously wrong work, it becomes very hard to motivate yourself to put in the very substantial required effort, especially when you perceive your own potential result as also not breaking the mold or solving the malaise.
Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?
#40In my experience with my interns, many of whom graduated from Harvard like me, some students at all universities suffer from burnout from their strenuous childhoods. So I sympathize that some kids need to chill a little. I wouldn’t call it self sabotage, but I understand the author is just trying to understand their classmates better. I’m not sure if a cry for help / agitating at the university will matter. I’m not s…
Sounds like we really need some top universities, maybe new ones, to increase acceptance 10X or more, back to the level where they’d accept people who would’ve been accepted in 1970 with the same scores.
There already exists tons of pre existing institutions that will give a great education to those students with many gifts. The twisted thing is if your parents send you to cram school and you DON’T get into Harvard, even if you have cognitive gifts, you’re going to still be drinking heavily at Berkeley from burnout. So the institution that does receive you doesn’t get the whole You.
It’s up to the high schools to take the first step to limit the stress, which has been a consensus opinion for at least a decade. And yet, I really doubt that’s going to happen in the high schools I’m personally familiar with. Nonetheless some brands, like Montessori, have achieved this (less stress, same education) for younger students, so my hopes are high.