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Natural language is an unnatural interface

varunshenoy.substack.com

31–40 of 94 posts

Re: Natural language is an unnatural interface

#31
post #30
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that confuses doing versus delegating . Delegation is easy to do via a text-box, because you're just kicking the interactive complexity-can down the road to someone else, often in a way which can be problematic even with actual humans. For example, a project-manager or executive could verbally delegate "make a new registration page for the site" and "needs more rounded corners", either to an AI or to an emplo…

> I think that confuses doing versus delegating. This is exactly it, thanks for putting it down clearly. Which is also why news of the death of programming as a profession are greatly exagerated. You're not being paid to write code, you're being paid to make decisions. Code is easy, or at least much easier than natural language.

I'd add, architecture, design patterns, object-orientation, security (!), and maintainability to that list

Re: Natural language is an unnatural interface

#32

Natural language is the ultimate programming language. We use it to program us humans all the time

Considering we move away from natural language whenever we have the chance to do so (many early formal languages were meant to target the humans who would in turn program computers!), I don't think this is really the case except for extremely trivial cases.

Natural languages are terrible programming languages for many of the same reasons programming languages are terrible natural languages.

Re: Natural language is an unnatural interface

#33
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Principal–agent problem! Previous generation assistants have been frozen in time by managerial capitalism. This is evident in literally all the incumbents that matter in the western world: Google, Amazon, Apple, Microsoft and Samsung. It took founder-led OpenAI to kick everyone in the butt. Thankfully the wheels are moving again to get to what you're describing, an inevitability in the very near future.

Who are the principal and the agent here?

Sam Altman is the principal. The agents are MAMAA middle managers, who are often also smart (though I'm clearly biased here, having been one of those in my previous life) but highly incentivized to be obedient and risk-averse.

Re: Natural language is an unnatural interface

#35
post #30
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that confuses doing versus delegating . Delegation is easy to do via a text-box, because you're just kicking the interactive complexity-can down the road to someone else, often in a way which can be problematic even with actual humans. For example, a project-manager or executive could verbally delegate "make a new registration page for the site" and "needs more rounded corners", either to an AI or to an emplo…

> I think that confuses doing versus delegating. This is exactly it, thanks for putting it down clearly. Which is also why news of the death of programming as a profession are greatly exagerated. You're not being paid to write code, you're being paid to make decisions. Code is easy, or at least much easier than natural language.

Seriously. I think posts/articles/etc related to replacement of Software Engineering jobs to AI are exaggerated and probably driven by jealousy or sadism. Just ignore those and move on.

(It was very depressing to believe that Software Engineers will lose jobs)

Re: Natural language is an unnatural interface

#36
post #31
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that confuses doing versus delegating. This is exactly it, thanks for putting it down clearly. Which is also why news of the death of programming as a profession are greatly exagerated. You're not being paid to write code, you're being paid to make decisions. Code is easy, or at least much easier than natural language.

I'd add, architecture, design patterns, object-orientation, security (!), and maintainability to that list

"design patterns" and especially one specific pattern such as "object orientation" are just part of code, i.e., easy, according to GP.

Re: Natural language is an unnatural interface

#37
post #12

Reminds me of the boom in voice assistants, when we were told it was the interface of the future. I’d ask my Google Home what the temperature was going to be today. It would tell me. I’d ask what the temperature was yesterday. It would tell me it didn’t understand the question. ChatGPT etc obviously aren’t quite that bad but the core problem remains discoverability. It isn’t at all clear what these interfaces can and…

Funny anecdote, but I have literally have started programming by doing “smart” assistants like the former, and I don’t think they were much worse. What I did was to lemmatize the words (my native tongue is agglutinative so it was somewhat harder than with English), and simply look at a fixed set of “commands” like “play it”, and pass the rest of the words as parameters when needed (I searched youtube for a video in this case).

Unfortunately I have seem to lost these “beautiful php” codes, even though I would be very curious how bad that code was :D

Re: Natural language is an unnatural interface

#38

Natural language is the ultimate programming language. We use it to program us humans all the time

> Natural language is the ultimate programming language. We use it to program us humans all the time

Unreliably, with mixed results.

Just yesterday, I said something loudly from my basement so that my family upstairs could hear, and the response was for them to ask why I was angrily yelling nonsense at them from the dungeon. YMMV.

Re: Natural language is an unnatural interface

#39
post #8

> unnatural interface A simple example might be the problem of "pick a color". Even the best natural-language interface is going to suck about as much as if you're trying to ask another human to do it for you, even if that assistant is capable of displaying 1-5 color swatches in their replies. Instead of just seeing the entire palette and choosing, you need to say "I want a gold color", "lighter than that" and "darke…

> A simple example might be the problem of "pick a color".

People still underestimate the power of LLMs. You ask it to show you a color picker, it generates HTML code for a color picker, you copy that into your browser and you can pick your color, which you can then copy&paste back into the LLM for further processing.

This already works and no human had to code a color picker into ChatGPT for this (and this is why LLMs are scary).

More broadly speaking I find the idea of "LLM apps" a bit problematic, it's basically the modern Microsoft Bob. The LLM itself is already the most powerful app you can think of. Trying to hide it with a UI that looks a little more than what you are already familiar with is removing its expressive power.

>> There are no better examples than Stable Diffusion prompts.

StableDiffusion prompts are a terrible example for the power of modern LLMs, as StableDiffusion has extremely primitive understanding of language, unlike ChatGPT. With StableDiffusion you are really just laying keywords and concepts together hoping that something interesting will happen. The moment you ask it for anything even remotely complex it falls apart. Ask it to generate "blue hair" and it might give you blue hair, but it will also paint random other objects in the image blue. Even simple attributes don't stick to the objects you assigned them to. Complex actions or expressions don't work at all. You have to use ControlNet, in-painting and other tricks to create complex images. The language model of StableDiffusion just can't handle it and the image generation itself is also lacking in generalization (i.e. you need custom trained models for specific styles or topics). It also doesn't allow the iterative refinement that you can do in ChatGPT, you only get a single prompt.

Prompt engineering is a short term workaround for the limitations of the current models. But that is going away. After all you have a LLM at your finger tips and guess what that's good for: generating text, which includes prompts.

Re: Natural language is an unnatural interface

#40
post #8

> unnatural interface A simple example might be the problem of "pick a color". Even the best natural-language interface is going to suck about as much as if you're trying to ask another human to do it for you, even if that assistant is capable of displaying 1-5 color swatches in their replies. Instead of just seeing the entire palette and choosing, you need to say "I want a gold color", "lighter than that" and "darke…

Yet this is how we communicate with designers and end up with good results.

I don't think they see it the same way. At least not given that instructions in the style GP mentions:

> Instead of just seeing the entire palette and choosing, you need to say "I want a gold color", "lighter than that" and "darker" and "less like urine" etc.

have meme status among designers, and not in a positive way. Some years ago, when I hanged out with a couple designers, I was introduced to Facebook groups exchanging examples of "briefs" and rework requests. Groups with names like "what the psyche of a graphic designer endures".

Stripped of all the banter, I'd say their complaints are the same as ours: vague requirements coming from people who don't know what they want. And like with software, "good results" come as much in spite of, as thanks to, natural language communication.

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