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Banging sounds heard during Titan search, according to internal government memo

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Re: Banging sounds heard during Titan search, according to internal government memo

#31

Post by mpreda »

gene91 wrote: post #24
mpreda wrote: post #23

I wonder why the submersible was not equipped with redundant "self surface" systems. I imagine the overall density of this submersible to be close to that of water. Such that dropping some amount of ballast (like the metallic rails underneath) may lighten it enough to self-surface. In addition, some emergency "baloons" may be fitted, inflatable in an emergency by CO2 capsules to resurface. And an emergency system to…

Not sure whether it’s applicable here. But when learning scuba diving, we were taught (or rather reminded of, from middle school physics) that a balloon would become bigger as one gets closer to the surface. A balloon 90m under water will be 10X the size when it’s at surface. Therefore, using a balloon for emergency surfacing will lead to a monotonically increasing acceleration rate (which means you’ll going be too f…

Indeed the pressure is huge down there, and this may represent a challange in inflating the ballon in the first place. Looking up the numbers, it seems the pressure at the Titanic is about 400bar, while the pressure of a CO2 cartdrige is about 800bar, so that works.

About the baloon becoming larger as it surfaces, a pressure release valve that vents the baloon based on the pressure differential with the exterior (water) may do the trick.

Re: Banging sounds heard during Titan search, according to internal government memo

#32

Post by prox »

mpreda wrote: post #23

I wonder why the submersible was not equipped with redundant "self surface" systems. I imagine the overall density of this submersible to be close to that of water. Such that dropping some amount of ballast (like the metallic rails underneath) may lighten it enough to self-surface. In addition, some emergency "baloons" may be fitted, inflatable in an emergency by CO2 capsules to resurface. And an emergency system to…

Here is a nice article:

>The maker of the lost Titan submersible previously complained about strict passenger-vessel regulations, saying the industry was 'obscenely safe'

https://www.insider.com/titan-submarine-ceo-complained-about...

Re: Banging sounds heard during Titan search, according to internal government memo

#33

Post by totetsu »

What is it about this type of story that is so attention grabbing? Kids trapped in cave, Plane missing in jungle, etc etc. Is there a name for this?

Pragmatically speaking, this is of little consequence to most people, there are greater human tragedies going on, there are more catastrophic engineering failures happening, more egregious negligence,.. something about the unknown element of it.

Re: Banging sounds heard during Titan search, according to internal government memo

#34

Post by dan_mctree »

prmoustache wrote: post #20

I am not even sure why we are looking for them, I don't think there is any way to setup rescue equipment that can go low enough to help them and drag that submersible out of the water before they would run out of oxygen.

Maybe they could attach a cable and drag it up to a ship? I'm sure there's ways to help these people with joined effort

Re: Banging sounds heard during Titan search, according to internal government memo

#35

Post by hef19898 »

prox wrote: post #32
mpreda wrote: post #23

I wonder why the submersible was not equipped with redundant "self surface" systems. I imagine the overall density of this submersible to be close to that of water. Such that dropping some amount of ballast (like the metallic rails underneath) may lighten it enough to self-surface. In addition, some emergency "baloons" may be fitted, inflatable in an emergency by CO2 capsules to resurface. And an emergency system to…

Here is a nice article: >The maker of the lost Titan submersible previously complained about strict passenger-vessel regulations, saying the industry was 'obscenely safe' https://www.insider.com/titan-submarine-ceo-complained-about...

In acynical way, it is fitting. Titanic was not the worst marine desaster in term of life lost. But since it was the rich and the celebrities who died on tha Titanic, well, it was enough to tackle safety.

When safety issues cause the loss of life, but don't for some reason grab the headlines in specific ways, nobody cares.

Re: Banging sounds heard during Titan search, according to internal government memo

#36

Post by numpad0 »

madaxe_again wrote: post #28
mpreda wrote: post #23

I wonder why the submersible was not equipped with redundant "self surface" systems. I imagine the overall density of this submersible to be close to that of water. Such that dropping some amount of ballast (like the metallic rails underneath) may lighten it enough to self-surface. In addition, some emergency "baloons" may be fitted, inflatable in an emergency by CO2 capsules to resurface. And an emergency system to…

It is. It has electromagnetic drop weights that are meant to detach on power failure. Thing is, when it’s out of the water and the power is off, there’s going to be a mechanism, bolts or dogs or zip ties or whatever, to keep them on - and someone has to remember to detach those as part of the launch.

It'll be another appaling surprise if they didnt have a panel or box along a checklist, either inside the sub or next to a control panel to store and verify all those safety pins and locks.

Re: Banging sounds heard during Titan search, according to internal government memo

#37

Post by prmoustache »

dan_mctree wrote: post #34
prmoustache wrote: post #20

I am not even sure why we are looking for them, I don't think there is any way to setup rescue equipment that can go low enough to help them and drag that submersible out of the water before they would run out of oxygen.

Maybe they could attach a cable and drag it up to a ship? I'm sure there's ways to help these people with joined effort

And with which equipment would you do that? Are there even submersibles with adequate tooling available in a small enough radius?

I've followed an OceanGate Titanic mission where a popular travel blogger was participating in and from what I understood there aren't many submersible vessels in the world able to go so low, let alone with functionnal tools. It is not like you can open the door to a diver for him to attach a cable, pressure is just too high.

Re: Banging sounds heard during Titan search, according to internal government memo

#38

Post by madaxe_again »

numpad0 wrote: post #36
madaxe_again wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is. It has electromagnetic drop weights that are meant to detach on power failure. Thing is, when it’s out of the water and the power is off, there’s going to be a mechanism, bolts or dogs or zip ties or whatever, to keep them on - and someone has to remember to detach those as part of the launch.

It'll be another appaling surprise if they didnt have a panel or box along a checklist, either inside the sub or next to a control panel to store and verify all those safety pins and locks.

It wouldn’t be the first time they’ve had a mundane mistake that has potential severe ramifications - like fitting a thruster backwards. Doesn’t inspire confidence.

I mean - I can think of so many examples in my life where I’ve seen some safety measure Macgyvered out of existence because it was inconvenient, and familiarity breeds complacency. I’m reminded of some really gnarly ski lift accidents where emergency brakes were disabled because they tripped inappropriately due to improper maintenance, and flights which have taken off with their pitot tubes still covered, and inertial measurement units fitted upside down in rockets, and on and on it goes.

Re: Banging sounds heard during Titan search, according to internal government memo

#39

Post by madaxe_again »

madaxe_again wrote: post #38
numpad0 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'll be another appaling surprise if they didnt have a panel or box along a checklist, either inside the sub or next to a control panel to store and verify all those safety pins and locks.

It wouldn’t be the first time they’ve had a mundane mistake that has potential severe ramifications - like fitting a thruster backwards. Doesn’t inspire confidence. I mean - I can think of so many examples in my life where I’ve seen some safety measure Macgyvered out of existence because it was inconvenient, and familiarity breeds complacency. I’m reminded of some really gnarly ski lift accidents where emergency brak…

Oh, or watertight compartments which didn’t go all the way up the hull because it was expensive and inconvenient. Oh, the irony.

Re: Banging sounds heard during Titan search, according to internal government memo

#40

Post by silisili »

totetsu wrote: post #33

What is it about this type of story that is so attention grabbing? Kids trapped in cave, Plane missing in jungle, etc etc. Is there a name for this? Pragmatically speaking, this is of little consequence to most people, there are greater human tragedies going on, there are more catastrophic engineering failures happening, more egregious negligence,.. something about the unknown element of it.

In this case, it's because everyone on board was filthy rich.

If it were me or you, we'd be sleeping with the fishes without mention.

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