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The Federated App Problem

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31–40 of 201 posts

Re: The Federated App Problem

#31
The handful of things mentioned in that article are definitely frictional, but I think people are willing and open to learning if they start to see value.

Smaller Lemmy instances feel more personal to me than subreddits did, and I think that is something people will find valuable.

Re: The Federated App Problem

#32
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... but I can’t understand why I would choose any particular server over another. Email is often a good analogy for questions like these: Why do you pick one email service over the other? Maybe you think the domain is cool. Maybe you heard that they are reliable or have features that others don't. Maybe your university, company or other community you belong to runs its own service. Or you decide to host your own. O…

Except that with e-mail there are obvious good reasons, which basically boil down to whether you've centered your digital life around the Google, Microsoft, or Apple ecosystems (or never moved away from Yahoo, etc.). These are recognizably proven brands that aren't going to disappear next year, and which integrate with your other tools in ways that clearly provide benefit. And back in the day before webmail was a thi…

That's what I meant by "no catch-all choices yet". There is no reason Google or Apple couldn't get in the game if they choose to. Supposedly Facebook is making a go at it for whatever that's worth.

I offered the email analogy because that helped me to wrap my head around it when I was starting out.

Re: The Federated App Problem

#33
The article sums up my current frustrations with federated platforms. Maybe it just needs some time for reliable communities to be known. But until then, I'll be happy to use centralized platforms. Alternatively, people can adapt the culture of self-hosting their own instances. Then you don't have to worry about reliability and content moderation.

Re: The Federated App Problem

#34
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... but I can’t understand why I would choose any particular server over another. Email is often a good analogy for questions like these: Why do you pick one email service over the other? Maybe you think the domain is cool. Maybe you heard that they are reliable or have features that others don't. Maybe your university, company or other community you belong to runs its own service. Or you decide to host your own. O…

Except that with e-mail there are obvious good reasons, which basically boil down to whether you've centered your digital life around the Google, Microsoft, or Apple ecosystems (or never moved away from Yahoo, etc.). These are recognizably proven brands that aren't going to disappear next year, and which integrate with your other tools in ways that clearly provide benefit. And back in the day before webmail was a thi…

Maybe not from the outside. But after a few months of actively using the platform with a curious mindset, I'd wager you'd have a much stronger idea of how instances differ. That's the main service I see the "pseudo-default" mastodon.social providing in the current world—as a "jumping off" point that people can use prior to migrating to more specific instances with more customizations or better communities.

Re: The Federated App Problem

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unfortunately, none of the fediverse seems to actually talk about this so without signing up and using an instance for a while to see what the moderation policies are like there's no way to know. Correct, but that's why you can actually migrate your account (including your followers!) from one instance another. The initial choice doesn't matter too much. Just migrate if you don't like it. That's why there isn't muc…

Can you migrate to another instance if yours becomes defederated?

"Defederated" is not something that happens to an instance, it's a choice that other instances make. There's no "globally defederated" state. If your server (Server A) is blocked by Server B, then no, you can't move to Server B. But you can still move to Server C that doesn't block you.

Re: The Federated App Problem

#36
post #24
post #4

I agree with the premise of the article. I’m a new Mastodon user trying to give the platform an honest shot, but I can’t understand why I would choose any particular server over another. Why choose anything other than the pseudo-default Mastodon.social? If I’m forced to choose another server, is that choice actually meaningful? I feel like I’m randomly picking between Hachyderm and TechHub.io and others. One advantag…

>I can’t understand why I would choose any particular server over another Who runs the server? On what kind of funding, and how long can it last? Are you served intrusive ads? Are your a customer or a product for the people running this instance? How hard is it to run an instance yourself, and what happens if you suddenly post a video that attracts 10M views? So many questions, I know, that's too hard, gimme somethin…

At the time I signed up for Mastodon and a server, I didn't consider and wasn't presented with any of these questions/answers or other points of differentiation among servers. I guess that's part of the issue: when an ordinary user signs up for Mastodon, they're unaware of what they should even consider when picking a server. As an ordinary Mastodon user myself, I just wanted to get on the platform and start using it.

Re: The Federated App Problem

#37
post #17
post #4

I agree with the premise of the article. I’m a new Mastodon user trying to give the platform an honest shot, but I can’t understand why I would choose any particular server over another. Why choose anything other than the pseudo-default Mastodon.social? If I’m forced to choose another server, is that choice actually meaningful? I feel like I’m randomly picking between Hachyderm and TechHub.io and others. One advantag…

> ... but I can’t understand why I would choose any particular server over another. Email is often a good analogy for questions like these: Why do you pick one email service over the other? Maybe you think the domain is cool. Maybe you heard that they are reliable or have features that others don't. Maybe your university, company or other community you belong to runs its own service. Or you decide to host your own. O…

And for both email and the Fediverse, there's an ideal answer that requires only marginally more work: have your own domain. In both cases, you don't have to host a server yourself, you can pay for email hosting and use your own domain. For email, services like Fastmail let you bring your own domain. For the Fediverse, https://togethr.party/ works well.

Re: The Federated App Problem

#38
post #11
post #2

If you're thinking of federation in terms of "apps" yes it's doomed. Like with email, you have to think about it in terms of "service". The "gravitate to one provider" problem is there (as with gmail), but those who care can still have their own email services or use reasonable third parties. The tragedy of course is that very few people care.

Well since circa mid-2010s the Internet is apps. Or app-like centralized web sites (like Hacker News). People want to install a single “Lemmy” app on their phone that shows them all Lemmy content and lets them post to all instances, using a single account and a *simple* user interface. If Lemmy cannot provide that user experience (abstracting away the federation), then yes it is doomed.

Could someone smarter than me explain why we can’t use a Bittorrent-like protocol to achieve this effect with federated servers?

Re: The Federated App Problem

#39
A big problem is that you don't actually see content on other instances. Also, you can't link accounts between instances (EDIT: you can post and subscribe to communities on other instances, but it's not obvious. You can't link 2 accounts on separate instances though)

There are several rust instances: https://lemmy.ml/c/rust, https://programming.dev/c/rust, https://lemmyrs.org/, and probably more. Why aren't they linked together, so that you see posts from one instance in another and can post and comment in one instance from an account on another? (I get there is e.g. https://lemmyrs.org/c/rust@lemmy.ml, but you should see and make posts from https://lemmy.ml/c/rust on the page https://lemmyrs.org, not a specific subpath).

Even better, why can't Rust lemmy link with rust kbin (https://kbin.social/m/rust) link with Rust discourse (https://users.rust-lang.org/) link with Rust Zulip (https://forge.rust-lang.org/platforms/zulip.html), so you can see and make posts on all instances from one?

This is what I initially thought the Fediverse was like. Right now it honestly just seems like many people running completely different servers and communities using the same software.

(This could even help with the decentralization aspect, because ideally the content and accounts would be replicated. So if one instance goes down, its content is still on connected instances, and possibily "ghost accounts" from that instance which let users there continue to post).

Re: The Federated App Problem

#40
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you post on many instances? Shouldn't you be posting on _your_ instance, that people you authorized can view?

You make posts on a particular community (through your home instance), and federation means all the other instances will mirror your post

Federation doesn't mean anything like that per se, you're talking detail of a particular implementation (I assume Mastodon but what do I know).

Federation just means multiple independent servers/domains can talk to each other, such as with email or Matrix, without the need for central authority (other than for discovering each other).

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